stroking the 650 h-1's


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stroking the 650 h-1's

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stroking the 650 h-1's - 11/2/2008 9:14:23 PM

papa_slap

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From: breaux bridge, la.
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so i am changing some tranny gears that i broke up at mudfest and i was playing around and noticed that there is like an extra 1/2" of clearance between the crank and the nearest obstruction. what kind of motor would that be if we could stroke the 650's and put the 700 bbk in that bad boy. i haven't done the math to see what cc yield we would get from this. but i think it would be crazy. what you guys think?

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resurrected: 05 black h1 "BIG BLACK",
it's got alitle bit!!

hers: 07 suzu fi, 450 "queen quad", 3"
xpatv, 28 swamplites on msa castlerocks,
2500 lb. winch yeah it spins them

team anyting goes racing
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Post #: 1

RE: stroking the 650 h-1's - 11/2/2008 9:43:35 PM

papa_slap

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Joined: 11/30/2007
From: breaux bridge, la.
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some of the engineers on here might correct me on what i think is a ending cc yield of this. I take that if you gain a .5" on your crank that means you gain 1" of stroke I'm only assuming since you gain .5" top and bottom on the stroke. 1 inch = 25.4mm. taken this information and you apply the 102mm bore (700bbk), x 110.4 (new stroke), convert to cc's, i think you can get to 902cc's. somebody with better math skills than myself might chime in i did the best i could.

_____________________________

resurrected: 05 black h1 "BIG BLACK",
it's got alitle bit!!

hers: 07 suzu fi, 450 "queen quad", 3"
xpatv, 28 swamplites on msa castlerocks,
2500 lb. winch yeah it spins them

team anyting goes racing
www.anytinggoes.com

(in reply to papa_slap)

Post #: 2

RE: stroking the 650 h-1's - 11/3/2008 4:37:05 PM

GWC

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From: Kansas
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LOL well i suck at math but i think thats alittle to HIGH

but i think you would end up with alot of money by the time you got done stroking it .

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Post #: 3

RE: stroking the 650 h-1's - 11/3/2008 5:11:07 PM

8upwithmud

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From: White Oak, Texas
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I came up with the same numbers. But that is a lot of stroke to add. Engineers talk about mean (average) piston speed. I think that would be pushing it. And it would be very expensive to have a custom crank and rod built. Bet you could sell a lot of them though. A 900 single. wow. And you could run in the 650 class.

_____________________________

05 Evil Twin
Bored, stroked, camed, ported, polished,
piped, jetted, snorkeled, clutched, geared,
dynateked, Gorrilla'd, lifted, and lawed.

13 axles
6 motors
6 differentials
1 fan
? belts

04 500M with 28 laws
05 400A with 27 lites
06 Night Rod

http://myspace.com/leebo1973

........................HPAC.........................

.............Hard Pack Arctic Cats.............

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Post #: 4

RE: stroking the 650 h-1's - 11/3/2008 5:12:58 PM

GWC

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From: Kansas
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really 900cc

yeah that would be crazy, think you should build one.lol

"its just a 650"..lol

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Post #: 5

RE: stroking the 650 h-1's - 11/3/2008 5:15:26 PM

8upwithmud

Posts: 871
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From: White Oak, Texas
Status: offline

Talk a bout some torque.

_____________________________

05 Evil Twin
Bored, stroked, camed, ported, polished,
piped, jetted, snorkeled, clutched, geared,
dynateked, Gorrilla'd, lifted, and lawed.

13 axles
6 motors
6 differentials
1 fan
? belts

04 500M with 28 laws
05 400A with 27 lites
06 Night Rod

http://myspace.com/leebo1973

........................HPAC.........................

.............Hard Pack Arctic Cats.............

(in reply to GWC)

Post #: 6

RE: stroking the 650 h-1's - 11/3/2008 5:17:22 PM

MUDTECHinc

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I am sure that you could not stroke it that much. the piston would eat the eat with an extra .5" of stroke. my guess would be about 5mm stroke so you would gain 10mm on the total stroke. That is just a guess but I would assume that around 775cc's would be about max on a 650.

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Post #: 7

RE: stroking the 650 h-1's - 11/3/2008 8:05:03 PM

papa_slap

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i measured a while ago and there is roughly 3/8" gap so you could probably add 1/4". i assume this would give you 12.25mm of stoke that would put you close to 835+ cc's i didn't do the math i'm just guestimating. i measured this with one of my finishing rulers that i use for cabinet work. i don't have a caliper so i used the best thing i have. i seen them stroke 300 honda's that much.

_____________________________

resurrected: 05 black h1 "BIG BLACK",
it's got alitle bit!!

hers: 07 suzu fi, 450 "queen quad", 3"
xpatv, 28 swamplites on msa castlerocks,
2500 lb. winch yeah it spins them

team anyting goes racing
www.anytinggoes.com

(in reply to MUDTECHinc)

Post #: 8

RE: stroking the 650 h-1's - 11/3/2008 8:07:13 PM

GWC

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From: Kansas
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man that would be way cool to have a 850cc H1

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Post #: 9

RE: stroking the 650 h-1's - 11/3/2008 8:13:12 PM

papa_slap

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From: breaux bridge, la.
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do you think the bearing would hold that much torque. we would be able to stroke it more than that but they have a bolt that passes right behind the crank about half way up from the bottom of the cases. other than this one bolt we would actually have an inch of clearance to the bottom of the case. i tell you guys what i know a guy that builds custom banshee and four stoke race bikes. and he builds custom cranks i'll take my extra motor to him and see what he says he might do it just to sell it as a kit. we'll see.

_____________________________

resurrected: 05 black h1 "BIG BLACK",
it's got alitle bit!!

hers: 07 suzu fi, 450 "queen quad", 3"
xpatv, 28 swamplites on msa castlerocks,
2500 lb. winch yeah it spins them

team anyting goes racing
www.anytinggoes.com

(in reply to GWC)

Post #: 10

RE: stroking the 650 h-1's - 11/3/2008 8:16:21 PM

GWC

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Joined: 5/7/2004
From: Kansas
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Thats cool let us know what he says, crap i could go far a 700cc top end with a stroker crank for 850cc..lol
i think the bottom end would take it pretty easy those roller bearings are hard to hurt thats for sure.

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Post #: 11

RE: stroking the 650 h-1's - 11/3/2008 8:24:29 PM

papa_slap

Posts: 714
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From: breaux bridge, la.
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I'm kind of pumped up now i'm not spending a crap load of money though but i'll find out if it can be done. if it's not to much i'll let him get the crank and spacer made.

_____________________________

resurrected: 05 black h1 "BIG BLACK",
it's got alitle bit!!

hers: 07 suzu fi, 450 "queen quad", 3"
xpatv, 28 swamplites on msa castlerocks,
2500 lb. winch yeah it spins them

team anyting goes racing
www.anytinggoes.com

(in reply to GWC)

Post #: 12

RE: stroking the 650 h-1's - 11/4/2008 8:31:47 AM

8upwithmud

Posts: 871
Joined: 11/7/2006
From: White Oak, Texas
Status: offline

You will have to make rods to, or at least change the wrist pin location on the pistons. Let us know what you come up with.

_____________________________

05 Evil Twin
Bored, stroked, camed, ported, polished,
piped, jetted, snorkeled, clutched, geared,
dynateked, Gorrilla'd, lifted, and lawed.

13 axles
6 motors
6 differentials
1 fan
? belts

04 500M with 28 laws
05 400A with 27 lites
06 Night Rod

http://myspace.com/leebo1973

........................HPAC.........................

.............Hard Pack Arctic Cats.............

(in reply to papa_slap)

Post #: 13

RE: stroking the 650 h-1's - 11/4/2008 8:52:07 AM

papa_slap

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From: breaux bridge, la.
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yeah i am about to call this guy and talk to him about it. to see what he says. just askin asking why would you want to make a longer rod wouldn't that defeat the purpose of stroking it.

_____________________________

resurrected: 05 black h1 "BIG BLACK",
it's got alitle bit!!

hers: 07 suzu fi, 450 "queen quad", 3"
xpatv, 28 swamplites on msa castlerocks,
2500 lb. winch yeah it spins them

team anyting goes racing
www.anytinggoes.com

(in reply to 8upwithmud)

Post #: 14

RE: stroking the 650 h-1's - 11/4/2008 10:12:09 AM

mrmrezg

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that's what i am thinking, a longer rod would take away from what you add to the crank. of course i could be wrong.

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Post #: 15

RE: stroking the 650 h-1's - 11/4/2008 10:33:57 AM

OUTLAWED450S

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From: kosse, tx usa
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: papa_slap

yeah i am about to call this guy and talk to him about it. to see what he says. just askin asking why would you want to make a longer rod wouldn't that defeat the purpose of stroking it.

if you put a stroker crank (the one your looking at) you need to lenghten the rod. the reason is. because when your crank starts pushing the piston up it will be pushing it more sideways when its starts up. remember when the crank starts up its pushing the rod up but the source of the force is coming from an angle and the more the piston reached TDC the more the rod becomes directly under the piston. if you run a longer rod and move the wrist pin up, toward the top on the piston in fixes the angle that the longer crank causes.

< Message edited by OUTLAWED450S -- 11/4/2008 10:38:53 AM >

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ALRIGHT PEOPLE ITS A NEW YEAR.
LETS NOT SCREW IT UP.

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Post #: 16

RE: stroking the 650 h-1's - 11/4/2008 11:02:06 AM

8upwithmud

Posts: 871
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From: White Oak, Texas
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I meant you need a shorter rod. With the longer stroke, the piston would hit the head. If it didn't hit the head, it would certainly have way to high compression.

_____________________________

05 Evil Twin
Bored, stroked, camed, ported, polished,
piped, jetted, snorkeled, clutched, geared,
dynateked, Gorrilla'd, lifted, and lawed.

13 axles
6 motors
6 differentials
1 fan
? belts

04 500M with 28 laws
05 400A with 27 lites
06 Night Rod

http://myspace.com/leebo1973

........................HPAC.........................

.............Hard Pack Arctic Cats.............

(in reply to OUTLAWED450S)

Post #: 17

RE: stroking the 650 h-1's - 11/4/2008 11:06:56 AM

papa_slap

Posts: 714
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From: breaux bridge, la.
Status: offline

Well i thought that that's what the cylinder spacer was for. plus i don't think the angle would be a problem cause you going to a 700cc piston which would open up the dimension over a larger plain, but i do see what you are saying outlaww 450s, i also think if you shorten the rod you are also defeating the purpose of stroking becasue you are taking away the effiency of the piston to use all the cylinder it can, jmo.!! IDK i'm trying to get in touch with this guy but he isn't answering he's always so busy.

_____________________________

resurrected: 05 black h1 "BIG BLACK",
it's got alitle bit!!

hers: 07 suzu fi, 450 "queen quad", 3"
xpatv, 28 swamplites on msa castlerocks,
2500 lb. winch yeah it spins them

team anyting goes racing
www.anytinggoes.com

(in reply to 8upwithmud)

Post #: 18

RE: stroking the 650 h-1's - 11/4/2008 11:18:24 AM

8upwithmud

Posts: 871
Joined: 11/7/2006
From: White Oak, Texas
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OK, now I'm confused. lol. I know the Kawasaki twins all use the same wrist pin location. Meaning the pistons can all be interchanged. But the 650's have a shorter stroke and a longer rod, 750's long stroke, shorter rod. So I guess you could use the same rod, just move the wrist pin location further up in the piston. So the piston crown still reaches the same point in the cylinder in relation to the head.

Hopefully your guy will get us all straight here. lol.

_____________________________

05 Evil Twin
Bored, stroked, camed, ported, polished,
piped, jetted, snorkeled, clutched, geared,
dynateked, Gorrilla'd, lifted, and lawed.

13 axles
6 motors
6 differentials
1 fan
? belts

04 500M with 28 laws
05 400A with 27 lites
06 Night Rod

http://myspace.com/leebo1973

........................HPAC.........................

.............Hard Pack Arctic Cats.............

(in reply to papa_slap)

Post #: 19

RE: stroking the 650 h-1's - 11/4/2008 11:20:35 AM

OUTLAWED450S

Posts: 1279
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From: kosse, tx usa
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quote:

ORIGINAL: papa_slap

Well i thought that that's what the cylinder spacer was for. plus i don't think the angle would be a problem cause you going to a 700cc piston which would open up the dimension over a larger plain, but i do see what you are saying outlaww 450s, i also think if you shorten the rod you are also defeating the purpose of stroking becasue you are taking away the effiency of the piston to use all the cylinder it can, jmo.!! IDK i'm trying to get in touch with this guy but he isn't answering he's always so busy.

you need to use a LONGER rod and the piston wrist pin hole will compensate for the longer rod becuase your moving the top of the cylinder closer to the wrist pin. a longer rod will not raise compression becuase you you are moving the wrist pin up.

if you add a 1/4" longer rod and you move the wrist pin hole up a 1/4" nothing has changed. you can do this on a stock crank and the compression does not go up either. the only way to create more CC's or compression (without touching the head) is bore or stroke. adding a longer rod and not changing the wrist pin location with stick the piston out the top of the head.

trust me you need a longer rod and a new piston and this will correct the angle of the rod to the piston. and the only thing that will increase compression is the longer throw on the crank. you can put a 3 foot long rod on it and it will still only move as far as the throw on the crank. if the crank has a 4"throw, that rod will only go up 4 inches.

_____________________________

ALRIGHT PEOPLE ITS A NEW YEAR.
LETS NOT SCREW IT UP.

(in reply to papa_slap)

Post #: 20

RE: stroking the 650 h-1's - 11/4/2008 11:24:25 AM

OUTLAWED450S

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 8upwithmud

. So I guess you could use the same rod, just move the wrist pin location further up in the piston. So the piston crown still reaches the same point in the cylinder in relation to the head.

Hopefully your guy will get us all straight here. lol.

if you did this you would shove the piston toward the cylinder wall even harder becuase your increasing the angle of the rod to piston. and you would here alot of tapping coming from the engine becuase the skirt of the piston would be slaping the cylinder wall. and it would eventually ruin the cylinder wall

_____________________________

ALRIGHT PEOPLE ITS A NEW YEAR.
LETS NOT SCREW IT UP.

(in reply to 8upwithmud)

Post #: 21

RE: stroking the 650 h-1's - 11/4/2008 11:29:09 AM

8upwithmud

Posts: 871
Joined: 11/7/2006
From: White Oak, Texas
Status: offline

Fussy, but I'm gettin' it.

_____________________________

05 Evil Twin
Bored, stroked, camed, ported, polished,
piped, jetted, snorkeled, clutched, geared,
dynateked, Gorrilla'd, lifted, and lawed.

13 axles
6 motors
6 differentials
1 fan
? belts

04 500M with 28 laws
05 400A with 27 lites
06 Night Rod

http://myspace.com/leebo1973

........................HPAC.........................

.............Hard Pack Arctic Cats.............

(in reply to OUTLAWED450S)

Post #: 22

RE: stroking the 650 h-1's - 11/4/2008 11:32:26 AM

OUTLAWED450S

Posts: 1279
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From: kosse, tx usa
Status: offline

ill draw it out tonight when i get home.

once you see it. you ok i got it. its really simple once you see the difference

_____________________________

ALRIGHT PEOPLE ITS A NEW YEAR.
LETS NOT SCREW IT UP.

(in reply to 8upwithmud)

Post #: 23

RE: stroking the 650 h-1's - 11/4/2008 12:08:51 PM

papa_slap

Posts: 714
Joined: 11/30/2007
From: breaux bridge, la.
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i got what you are saying now, i understood before. I see that this really has to be done or you will wedge the piston in the cylinder. i also talked to the guy he looked at the old motor he said he could achieve a 16mm stroke and bore it to 106mm. I think this will yield 858cc's somebody might check this. i am thinking about doing this when i pay off the suzuki before the next race season. what yall think. BTW i am going to run two radiators.

_____________________________

resurrected: 05 black h1 "BIG BLACK",
it's got alitle bit!!

hers: 07 suzu fi, 450 "queen quad", 3"
xpatv, 28 swamplites on msa castlerocks,
2500 lb. winch yeah it spins them

team anyting goes racing
www.anytinggoes.com

(in reply to OUTLAWED450S)

Post #: 24

RE: stroking the 650 h-1's - 11/4/2008 12:27:33 PM

papa_slap

Posts: 714
Joined: 11/30/2007
From: breaux bridge, la.
Status: offline

I think i am going to just stay with the 102mm bore with the 101mm stroker that would give me 825cc's and i won't have to worry about heating issues. probably have the piston cut for 12:1 comp.

_____________________________

resurrected: 05 black h1 "BIG BLACK",
it's got alitle bit!!

hers: 07 suzu fi, 450 "queen quad", 3"
xpatv, 28 swamplites on msa castlerocks,
2500 lb. winch yeah it spins them

team anyting goes racing
www.anytinggoes.com

(in reply to papa_slap)

Post #: 25

RE: stroking the 650 h-1's - 11/4/2008 1:24:04 PM

8upwithmud

Posts: 871
Joined: 11/7/2006
From: White Oak, Texas
Status: offline

I get what you're saying, I just don't understand why it is necessary. Like on a 383 stroker. Putting in a 400 crank, seems like you had to run shorter rods. Maybe I'm mistaken. But I know the Kawasaki 750's have a shorter rod with the longer stroke.

_____________________________

05 Evil Twin
Bored, stroked, camed, ported, polished,
piped, jetted, snorkeled, clutched, geared,
dynateked, Gorrilla'd, lifted, and lawed.

13 axles
6 motors
6 differentials
1 fan
? belts

04 500M with 28 laws
05 400A with 27 lites
06 Night Rod

http://myspace.com/leebo1973

........................HPAC.........................

.............Hard Pack Arctic Cats.............

(in reply to papa_slap)

Post #: 26

RE: stroking the 650 h-1's - 11/4/2008 1:39:54 PM

OUTLAWED450S

Posts: 1279
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From: kosse, tx usa
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he motor will make a little more torqe with a longer rod and a piston with the wrist move up.

when some guys build a stroker the will cut a slot out of the bottom of the cylinder. so they can run a longer rod. and a stroker crank, cutting this slot out keeps the rod from coming incontact with the bottom of the cylinder wall. just so they can run a longer rod.

now if your runing nitrous you run a slighty longer rod but you buy a piston that has a thick deck with a lower top grove. so the thick deck of the piston can take the heat of the nitrous. you wouldnt want to move the wrist pin way up high (to get the longest rod possible)becuase this doesnt leave enough materal for a thicker deck for nitrous.

_____________________________

ALRIGHT PEOPLE ITS A NEW YEAR.
LETS NOT SCREW IT UP.

(in reply to 8upwithmud)

Post #: 27

RE: stroking the 650 h-1's - 11/5/2008 10:08:23 AM

OUTLAWED450S

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From: kosse, tx usa
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maybe this will help. hope you can read it

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by OUTLAWED450S -- 11/5/2008 10:09:58 AM >

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ALRIGHT PEOPLE ITS A NEW YEAR.
LETS NOT SCREW IT UP.

(in reply to OUTLAWED450S)

Post #: 28

RE: stroking the 650 h-1's - 11/5/2008 12:28:21 PM

GWC

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From: Kansas
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I dont see why you would want a longer rod when you stroke the crank, you will be getting a longer throw just by strokeing the crank so you dont want a longer rod as well.

I stroke a old harley i had 5/16" and just used a spacer under the cylinder to do so. you have to use a spacer or have a piston made to make up the difference in height but a longer rod is not needed IMOP.

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