24v or 12v cummins
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24v or 12v cummins

 
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24v or 12v cummins - 10/2/2008 11:02:52 AM   
hightechredneck


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which one is better in your eyes?

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RE: 24v or 12v cummins - 10/2/2008 12:05:35 PM   
Muddin_dude05

 

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12v, and that is based off of...

1. Can get 400hp with only "tweaking"
2. Better mileage

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Post #: 2
RE: 24v or 12v cummins - 10/2/2008 12:25:27 PM   
Guest
12 valve is a great motor but it is going to be hard to find one with lower mileage...  Plus the 12 valves you find will need the front cover housing fixed and new gaskets..  24 valve is another great motor but has issues with lift pumps and injector  pumps..  The best thing to do is convert the a 24 valve with a 12 valve P-pump..  There are kits out there and you have a easy way to make power...

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RE: 24v or 12v cummins - 10/2/2008 1:22:03 PM   
Muddin_dude05

 

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The kits to do that though are like $2k+ and it requires either a 12v timing coer or machining the 24v timing cover to fit. For nearly the cost of doing that you can do a rebuild on a 12v engine lol.

I will say if you want to drive a stock truck, pull trailers and daily drive a 24v is hard to beat! Smoother power and the accelerator pedal is not nearly as sensitive!

If you buy one and can bear to drive a 5sp get it, I am not a fan of the Dodge autos.

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'07 Grizzly 700EFI Fully Snorkeled, EPI White/450&700 Weights, radiator relocated, Front Gorillas and 29.5x12 Laws on MSA Black Torks on all corners!!
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'96 Dodge 2500 12v 5sp 4x4 500-600rwhp, Big 'O Spinny Thingy!!

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Post #: 4
RE: 24v or 12v cummins - 10/2/2008 1:24:44 PM   
Muddin_dude05

 

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I don't know if this would matter to ya hightech but when I had my cylinder head off for firerings, port & polish and a valve job at 210,000miles to cross hatching on the cylinder walls looked great! And even though it had seen 1600*+ many many times the pistons were all in great shape!

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'07 Grizzly 700EFI Fully Snorkeled, EPI White/450&700 Weights, radiator relocated, Front Gorillas and 29.5x12 Laws on MSA Black Torks on all corners!!
'96 Wolverine 350, Snorkled and locked but not running right now :-(
'96 Dodge 2500 12v 5sp 4x4 500-600rwhp, Big 'O Spinny Thingy!!

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Post #: 5
RE: 24v or 12v cummins - 10/2/2008 3:18:32 PM   
650twin

 

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12 valves - simple reliable power, but constant, not adjustable... long bed only in pre-98s ... 5th gear nuts come off pretty easy in the NV4500's

24 valves - HAVE to monitor fuel pressure - ability to turn power on and off, turn the box on 200+ hp ... turn it off -back to stock, NV5600 six speed toughness is legendary

both have advantages and disadvantages

< Message edited by 650twin -- 10/2/2008 3:20:01 PM >


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Post #: 6
RE: 24v or 12v cummins - 10/2/2008 5:33:47 PM   
hightechredneck


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ya i am looking at finding either 12v or 24v and pretty much redoing it all .its a project i always wanted to do. kinda like a street truck with 4x4 lifted a few inches and of course huge power numbers .

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Post #: 7
RE: 24v or 12v cummins - 10/2/2008 7:06:14 PM   
HondaGuy


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Do the newer body style (03+) Cummins 24V motors have the same fuel psi issues as the previous models do. I want to get one about 03-05 in a yr or two when my Dakota is paid off a bit more, or completely.

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RE: 24v or 12v cummins - 10/2/2008 8:35:32 PM   
hightechredneck


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i got a daily driver this would be more of a project truck .i dont make tons of money like some people on here do so it will be a long project with baby steps .the biggest thing i want is it to be sure fast with some serious numbers sittin on 37s or 38s .so i probly should be asking what motor can i get more power and numbers out of?

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Post #: 9
RE: 24v or 12v cummins - 10/2/2008 11:07:47 PM   
durallymax

 

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muddin_dude. Only 1600, puss. haha jus messin wit ya.

If its going to be a cheap project get an older 12v and secure the KDP.  You can fix the KDp for little or no money if you already have the drill bit and tap. Then all you need is a cheap set screw.

After you do that the 12v is pretty good.

For fueling mods you'd most likely be wanting the following to do it on the cheap.

370 marine injectors, can be had for about 400 bucks sometimes cheaper.
Grind you own fuel plate. You can grind it to a 0 plate or buy a #10 plate for over $100.
191 Laser cut delivery valves.  These are under $200 I believe and will really help out the fuel.
3,000RPM Governor spring kit or if you add 60# exhaust valve springs you can run a 4500RPM Governor spring kit. Again its another cheap modification.
Then adjust the screw

Now you have plenty of fuel and RPMs. YOu do not need to worry about an aftermarket lift pump on the 12 valves as the stocker will support quite a bit of power but if you want you can always add one.

However with all of that fuel you will have a smokey truck that runs hot.

so....

A Different turbo will help clean it up.  You can do a modded HX40 on the cheap or run an industril injection Silver bullet which I believ is about $2,100.

The Exhaust manifolds on these trucks are prone to cracking so a 3 piece manifold from ATS or PDIs new maniflod will solve this issue and flow much better.

Add a better clutch and away you go.

with the exception of the turbo all of these mods are failry cheap just require some labor.

as far as money goes were not all rich. I myself am a student with little money, but take the time to go out and get sponsorships. Right now I have a total of 7 sponsors totaling $11,000 in sponsorship money. BUt keep in mind you have to use it for competition and do good.  If your not going to be pulling or racing it I dont think you will get any money.  If you do plan on making it a competition vehicle you also have to keep the sponsors happy. I myself Keep the sponsors updated with how the truck is performing, how the buildup is coming, where the next pull is, and at each pull I will pay their entry fee wither into the pits or into the grandstand and even grill out for them too before the pull if I have time. At the end of the year I have a party for them will recaps from the season and door prizes. I also supply them with my pulling teams merchandise such as stickers, shirts, sweatshirts and hats.  In the end they end up very hapy and are willing to contribute more money to make the truck perform better.

Good luck with the build.

(in reply to hightechredneck)
Post #: 10
RE: 24v or 12v cummins - 10/3/2008 5:00:55 PM   
Swamp Star

 

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i wish i had a 98 12v with a 6-speed behind it just for how much power you can make but i dont i have a 24v which make plenty of power but can only ever be so much as the VP-44 pump can only dump so much i think the highest HP VP-44 truck is around 800HP and there are 12v that are over 2000HP but for daily use and pulling 24V all the way for all out nastynes go with a 12V like durally said try and get some sponsers i have 1 right now but it is SOUTHERN DIESEL PERFORMANCE ( i had more but with work bein like it is money is to tight to make most pulls now) i get discounts on parts and labor so this could be a route you can try but like was said you have to keep them up dated on how your doin


good luck hope this helps ya in some way

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Post #: 11
RE: 24v or 12v cummins - 10/4/2008 10:59:09 PM   
Muddin_dude05

 

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1600* is what my pyro stops at, I have stayed in it for 1/2 mile while accelerating with it pegged out...

If you want cheap project find a 12v, if you get one and know how to turn a wrench or bring it to someone who knows what they are doing you can have 400rwhp for $100-200.

Don't buy 370's they are junk, the spray pattern is too wide and so thus can only be run safely at 17*-18* timing which will not make big HP as easily.

Get New Era or PureDieselPower 435's, that is what I have and they are good clean injectors and mine should be good for 22*-24* timing.

If you want 500hp this will get it:

435 injectors
#100 fuel plate
AFC rack travel mods
4GSK
18*-20* timing
SPS 62/14 (or HX35 over HT3B twins)



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'07 Grizzly 700EFI Fully Snorkeled, EPI White/450&700 Weights, radiator relocated, Front Gorillas and 29.5x12 Laws on MSA Black Torks on all corners!!
'96 Wolverine 350, Snorkled and locked but not running right now :-(
'96 Dodge 2500 12v 5sp 4x4 500-600rwhp, Big 'O Spinny Thingy!!

http://community.webshots.com/user/Muddin_dude06

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RE: 24v or 12v cummins - 10/5/2008 1:22:08 PM   
durallymax

 

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Yes the 370s spray pattern sucks but for somebody on a really tight budget they work for the time being.

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Post #: 13
RE: 24v or 12v cummins - 10/5/2008 1:47:28 PM   
650twin

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Muddin_dude05

Get New Era 435's 



get New Era anything ...

Chuck is a great guy ...

saw him last weekend at his big pull in Zaneville ...

he won't let you down ...

he's just about got me talked into EDM'ing and then EXTRUDE HONING the wifes stock injectors ...

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Post #: 14
RE: 24v or 12v cummins - 10/5/2008 8:02:31 PM   
durallymax

 

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Dynomite injectors have also caused some melted pistons.

If you have to run DDP injectors take them to a shop and have the shop test them to be safe. They makes some good power but ike I say every now and then there is a bad onee.

(in reply to 650twin)
Post #: 15
RE: 24v or 12v cummins - 10/5/2008 9:05:57 PM   
hightechredneck


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i got my eye on a 95 2500 right now and trying to set on a price with the owner as we speak its a manual . im confused everyone is telling me by turning up one screw i can get 400hp out of a 12v motor ?

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Post #: 16
RE: 24v or 12v cummins - 10/5/2008 9:12:52 PM   
Muddin_dude05

 

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I bought my 435's for $350 brand new, even came with the edge filters machined out of them.

12v manifolds aren't prone to cracking it is the 24v's that had that problem...

Not one screw, but modifying some pieces in the pump and tweaking things it is very possible. If you get it with that 5sp buy a ValAir clutch from the VP Dan and he will hook you up. If you put one in there you can have the pump modified or tweak it yourself and get 400rwhp with only $100-200 in it (other than the clutch).

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'07 Grizzly 700EFI Fully Snorkeled, EPI White/450&700 Weights, radiator relocated, Front Gorillas and 29.5x12 Laws on MSA Black Torks on all corners!!
'96 Wolverine 350, Snorkled and locked but not running right now :-(
'96 Dodge 2500 12v 5sp 4x4 500-600rwhp, Big 'O Spinny Thingy!!

http://community.webshots.com/user/Muddin_dude06

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Post #: 17
RE: 24v or 12v cummins - 10/5/2008 9:18:55 PM   
durallymax

 

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well if 435s are that cheap I would go with them.

400rwhp on just fuel gets a little smokey though. A turbo really helps clean it up and get it moving. The SPS71 is looking like its been working well for people.

Im not 100% up to speed with cummins performance anymore, its been over a year since I quit researching it. Gotta focus on the Dmax now.

what price you at with him if you dont mind me asking.

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RE: 24v or 12v cummins - 10/6/2008 8:59:56 AM   
hightechredneck


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he wants 4500 for the 95 2500 2wd 5speed . what you think? i made him a offer of 3500 and he turned me down .by the way the truck needs a paint job and has just over 150kmiles.

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Post #: 19
RE: 24v or 12v cummins - 10/6/2008 9:01:25 AM   
hightechredneck


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i am really wanting 4wd so i can go off road at times .so i am going to look around a little harder first before i give the guy what he wants for the truck.

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-FOR SALE $80PM ME^^^^


07 Honda Rincon 680 Camo
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-2inch Level Lift
-35inch Toyo M/T
-4inch Turbo Back Exhaust W/5Inch Tip
-Bully Dog Programmer

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Post #: 20
RE: 24v or 12v cummins - 10/6/2008 9:46:33 AM   
durallymax

 

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4500 aint too bad but with the truck market these days you could probably get it lower.

The miles on the motor and trans are fine, just the body and interior dont always last.

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512rwhp 1085lb-ft
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RE: 24v or 12v cummins - 10/6/2008 1:38:09 PM   
hightechredneck


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i think its a pretty good prices just want to look around a bit more really want a 4x4 besdies the guy that is selling it is getting crap from his wife sence i made my offer so i will let her nag at him for another week or so maybe get that price down where i like it to be.

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Post #: 22
RE: 24v or 12v cummins - 10/6/2008 9:26:16 PM   
durallymax

 

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Wait it out, shell get her way eventually.

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EFI Live: V7.5.4/V8.1 OS:03904405
Suncoast IV w/1055
512rwhp 1085lb-ft
13.6 @ 99mph
Many mods to come over the winter.

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Post #: 23
RE: 24v or 12v cummins - 10/6/2008 9:48:51 PM   
Muddin_dude05

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: durallymax

well if 435s are that cheap I would go with them.

400rwhp on just fuel gets a little smokey though. A turbo really helps clean it up and get it moving. The SPS71 is looking like its been working well for people.

Im not 100% up to speed with cummins performance anymore, its been over a year since I quit researching it. Gotta focus on the Dmax now.

what price you at with him if you dont mind me asking.



If you stop at 400rwhp which is more than enough on the street and towing friendly a SPS62 would be PLENTY of air, 400rwhp is about all I would try for until you have the funds for a headgasket replacement and ATLEAST studs. Shoot a S300g would be more than sufficiant, a PS71 is WAAAY overkill! That is a competition charger made for 700hp+.


What is your ultimate power goal for the truck and what do you want to use it for?

_____________________________

'07 Grizzly 700EFI Fully Snorkeled, EPI White/450&700 Weights, radiator relocated, Front Gorillas and 29.5x12 Laws on MSA Black Torks on all corners!!
'96 Wolverine 350, Snorkled and locked but not running right now :-(
'96 Dodge 2500 12v 5sp 4x4 500-600rwhp, Big 'O Spinny Thingy!!

http://community.webshots.com/user/Muddin_dude06

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Post #: 24
RE: 24v or 12v cummins - 10/6/2008 11:10:30 PM   
durallymax

 

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^^ you make good points about how I lost most of my cummins knowledge.

Whats wrong with overkill?? hehe. I guess this is coming from me who has no self control when it comes to my truck.

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'03 GMC 2500HD LB7/Allison EC/SB 4x4 Dark Charcoal Metallic SLT. Injectors at 84,000. Sled Puller/DD
EFI Live: V7.5.4/V8.1 OS:03904405
Suncoast IV w/1055
512rwhp 1085lb-ft
13.6 @ 99mph
Many mods to come over the winter.

(in reply to Muddin_dude05)
Post #: 25
RE: 24v or 12v cummins - 10/7/2008 11:15:10 AM   
Muddin_dude05

 

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Not tryin' to pick anything apart I just don't want the guy to think "If I buy A, B, C, and D products I will have 600hp and be reliable for X amount".

I thought I had my build planned out for 550rwhp with a certain dollar amount and was sadly mistaken! It took much much more money and a lot of downtime while having the cylinder head reworked etc. and now I have that power and I either need a custom cam to improve spoolup 300rpm's or more or sell my single to build twins... AGAIN. lol.

I am just doing more and more daily driving and towing and a build for that is completely different than one for sledpulling.

A PS71 is bigger than my single turbo and mine is probably the biggest I would try and use on the steet.



_____________________________

'07 Grizzly 700EFI Fully Snorkeled, EPI White/450&700 Weights, radiator relocated, Front Gorillas and 29.5x12 Laws on MSA Black Torks on all corners!!
'96 Wolverine 350, Snorkled and locked but not running right now :-(
'96 Dodge 2500 12v 5sp 4x4 500-600rwhp, Big 'O Spinny Thingy!!

http://community.webshots.com/user/Muddin_dude06

(in reply to durallymax)
Post #: 26
RE: 24v or 12v cummins - 10/7/2008 2:46:16 PM   
hightechredneck


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well i am looking for around 450 to 500 all said and done . the truck is going to be more of a trail truck/pull truck so i still havent found a 4x4 that i really like for the right price .i am thinking about a 24v to be honest for the simiple fact that i can run a programmer and get roughly 400 just from that .

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Post #: 27
RE: 24v or 12v cummins - 10/7/2008 2:58:17 PM   
Muddin_dude05

 

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Unless you buy a 24v Common Rail you won't touch 400hp with just a programmer. The "biggest" programmer you can buy for a '98.5-'02 24v is the TST Comp. rated at 160hp which still wouldn't put it at 400hp even at the flywheel.

To get 400hp from a 24v you will need a TST Comp, Timing box (Smarty, Edge EZ, Diablo PowerPuck) and an injector upgrade of ATLEAST RV275's but something a bit bigger would make it more likely to happen.

Along with those mods would be a pusher pump to the stock lift pump or a full replacement.

With any of them you WILL need gauges to monitor EGT, Boost, and Fuel Press. once you start modifying them for more power.

The simplest way to get 500rwhp from a Cummins would be a 12v with:

AFC Modified for full travel
#100 or #10 plate (#100 has harder fueling on top)
435 Injectors
18*-20* timing
4GSK or modified 3GSK
Fresh headgasket with 12mm ARP or A1 studs
4" exhaust
HD Clutch (ValAir is my choice)
and either a SPS62/14 *OR* HX35 and HT3B twins

That should provide a solid 500-550rwhp that can still tow, daily drive etc with very minimal turbo "lag"

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'96 Dodge 2500 12v 5sp 4x4 500-600rwhp, Big 'O Spinny Thingy!!

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(in reply to hightechredneck)
Post #: 28
RE: 24v or 12v cummins - 10/7/2008 7:27:04 PM   
HondaGuy


Posts: 1494
Joined: 3/15/2008
From: Onancock, VA, USA
Status: online
Ok I'm confused a little about the 12v and 24v common rail and non common rail, when did they start making them common rail and do the common rail motors have the same lift pump issues as the ones that aren't common rail. I want to get a 03-05 2500 Cummins in a yr or 2 but if they have problems once you start trying to make more power then I might reconsider. I want that bodystyle truck, not the 94-01 style thats why I'm asking. I don't know much about diesels but I do know basically what common rail means so I think I know the answer to my question but I'm not positive. I don't have nearly the power goals you guys do I just want it to be faster then my bro-in-law's F-350 6.0 lol. All hes got done to that is head studs, cai, stacks, SCT tuner, and egr delete, and its a 4dr long bed 4x4 with 8" lift on 37s and stock gears.

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2008 Honda Rancher ES 4x4 black
Supertrapp Mudslinger
HL EPI Clutch Kit
Relocated Radiator Permacool 8" electric fan
12x7 ITP C Series Type 5s
27in Bi/Tri Claws
Viper Max 3000lb winch Red Amsteel rope
Extreme Snorkle
some other stuff

88 Yamaha Banshee (kinda sorta for sale or trade)
Looking for a 4-stroke 400cc or bigger, anybody got any offers pm them to me anything is considered 2wd 4wd etc etc.
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(in reply to Muddin_dude05)
Post #: 29
RE: 24v or 12v cummins - 10/7/2008 7:55:03 PM   
durallymax

 

Posts: 423
Joined: 2/26/2008
Status: offline
The new body style 24v are all Common rail injected.

The older 24v are "CAPS" injected.

Common rails are easy to add power to at first but when you wanna push the envelope it gets tricky and expensive.

They do not have lift pump issues. I dont know if the CR Cummins has a lift pump or not but I know the duramax does not have one at all and snce day one it has been common rail injected and had no common problems related to having no lift pump.

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'03 GMC 2500HD LB7/Allison EC/SB 4x4 Dark Charco