vampires or mudzillas

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Polaris Power -> vampires or mudzillas (7/16/2008 11:32:01 PM)

me and my buddy that i ride with both have foreman 450's, he has 28x12x12 mudzillas front and rear, and i have 27x12x12 vampires, who do you think will do better in the mud?



gmcz71 -> RE: vampires or mudzillas (7/16/2008 11:34:15 PM)

it will be a so-so situation.

in the botomless soupy stuff he will out pull you but in the hard-bottomed mud and climbing out of ruts your bike will excel over his.



smallblockrx -> RE: vampires or mudzillas (7/17/2008 12:59:13 AM)

mudzillas are horrible on slick hard pack, you would think its ice. in pits and deep holes you wont touch him but in slick spots you got him.



louisianabbad_brute -> RE: vampires or mudzillas (7/17/2008 1:23:17 AM)

yeah if the hole's got a bottom, you got it everytime



kleinwild -> RE: vampires or mudzillas (7/17/2008 6:24:36 AM)

MudZilla's



J_Fred -> RE: vampires or mudzillas (7/17/2008 1:56:15 PM)

Vampires.

But... I won't use just one word to express my opinon.  I'll give you my full thoughts on it, haha.

The Mudzillas have too steep of a tread pitch and too much tread crossing the center of the tire to outperform a same sized Vampire.  The only advantage he will have is half an inch of ground clearance, if both tires run true and bikes are the same.

For all of you saying the Mudzillas will do better in bottomless, explain.  If it's a heavier, skinnier tire (the 28x12 Mudzillas measure round about 11.5, the Vamps in at 12 usually) it will most definately sink quicker in mud.  So if a mudhole is truly "bottomless" how will sinking down quicker help?  I feel most of you are basing this on the Vampires myth of "digging" that is supported by those who have 800 pound quads with Mexican EDL"s on them...  Yes, a 8'' wide tire that weighs nearly 40 pounds (Mex EDL) is going to sink.  Regardless of lug pattern. 
You'll also find many people will say the Mudzillas are diggers as well.  I would agree, but only because they are a heavy tire that usually run a bit skinny (but rarely short).

In any type of mud, without ruts or other clearence requirements, you should be able to outperform him.  Not to mention the power savings you'll have because his tires weigh around 5 pounds a peice more than yours.

However, in the long run, both of these tires are Pure mud tires, and will perform as such.  This being said, most of the differences will be hard to notice, unless you ride in a lot of different mud types constantly, with the same line, and switch quads constantly.



GWC -> RE: vampires or mudzillas (7/17/2008 4:18:59 PM)

I would think the Vamps will do better, like others have said the trad crosses to far threw the middle on Mudzillas to make them bite as well as a vamp will. Now i dont think this is going to be a huge difference in preformance but i think the vamps will do better.



mr. potato head -> RE: vampires or mudzillas (7/17/2008 11:00:25 PM)

i have my first ride on the mudzillas, didnt have much time in the mud, but i think they do better t han people say,  they are not an outlaw, but they cut or slice through the mud.  i think the vamps will pull harder, but the Mzillas will go right through with no problem but instead of bitting and pulling, they will cut into the mud and as long as he has throttle control i dont think it will dig to fast.  basically i feel it will come down to rider, or the smig of GC he may have.



kleinwild -> RE: vampires or mudzillas (7/18/2008 6:31:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: J_Fred

Vampires.

But... I won't use just one word to express my opinon.  I'll give you my full thoughts on it, haha.




He asked "which tire" not which tire and why?



zwgrizz -> RE: vampires or mudzillas (7/18/2008 9:27:14 AM)

Haven't rode with many vampires, but it is true that the mudzillas are not good on hard pack, but not many bad mudholes are hard pack at the bottom. My mudzillas are great in ruts though so i believe if the mud hole is soft or has ruts the mudzillas will outperform the vampires, but then again idk alot about the vamps.



jasson660grizzly -> RE: vampires or mudzillas (7/18/2008 9:48:37 AM)

I got 27" vamps on my grizzly, and they work great. The slow i go the better they bit in soft muck! hard packed bottom i can fly through. Buddies rhino has the zilla's and its backwards for him. Faster in the soft muck, and hard pack he hates. so its up to what you ride!



J_Fred -> RE: vampires or mudzillas (7/18/2008 2:12:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kleinwild

quote:

ORIGINAL: J_Fred

Vampires.

But... I won't use just one word to express my opinon.  I'll give you my full thoughts on it, haha.




He asked "which tire" not which tire and why?


easier for you I see.  Makes your one word post seem very informed.  Hows that 850cc V-Twin PoPo coming along?

Still nobody answered my question?

quote:

ORIGINAL: J_Fred
For all of you saying the Mudzillas will do better in bottomless, explain.  If it's a heavier, skinnier tire it will most definately sink quicker in mud.  So if a mudhole is truly "bottomless" how will sinking down quicker help? 


And this post further raises the importance of the question:
quote:

ORIGINAL: mr. potato head

the Mzillas... will cut into the mud and as long as he has throttle control i dont think it will dig to fast. 



outdrsmn82 -> RE: vampires or mudzillas (7/25/2008 10:17:09 AM)

i say vamps. less weight and really are an effective tire. 

long version.
my bud has mudzillas and i have vamps. (27" m'zillas on ac 700efi w/lil work and 26" worn vamps on bone stock ac 400i, both wides and skinnies)

we rode only once but i have to say that mudzillas dont like slick banks i walked the dog thru the hole all the way out. he walked thru it but when it came to the steep slick bank he had to break those suckers loose to make it thru. (not only once but 6 times)

the mud was little watery, thick pudding, and a hard bottom but deep. (3 feet in some spots) 

i will chime in when i get more results.



J_Fred -> RE: vampires or mudzillas (7/25/2008 1:45:40 PM)

I also mention the Mudzillas complete lack of reverse in muddy situations.  I've seen the 28 Mudzillas stick a  Cat... when that Cat wasn't even bottomed out or dragging anything.  It just didn't move.  tires turned but no go.  And I could keep moving with my SRA, 3WD Honda with 27x12 Vampires all around him, though I eventually got stuck, I could move forward and backwards to a certain extant until I was completely bottomed out.  Never were the Vampires the only thing keeping me from going forward or backward.  The Cat's Mudzillas on the otherhand...

Mudzillas just aren't as good of a mud tire as Vampires, imo.



GWC -> RE: vampires or mudzillas (7/25/2008 1:49:11 PM)

Yeap Vamps will whoop them up...lol  only bad thing with vamps is there tire sizes they need to get the fix and make some bigger ones.

I would of bought some 30" Vamps 10s and 12s in a second over my Mudlights..[:)]



outdrsmn82 -> RE: vampires or mudzillas (7/25/2008 2:11:23 PM)

lol. i love my vamps soooooooo much and dont regret getting them for a second. 30" vamps=[:D].



J_Fred -> RE: vampires or mudzillas (7/25/2008 2:13:13 PM)

GWC, true 30x12 EDL's and 30x10 Vamps would be too much for the world to handle.



outdrsmn82 -> RE: vampires or mudzillas (7/25/2008 4:13:30 PM)

polaris power,

you put it to some more tests and let us know how it turned out. and of course some pics or even vids would be nice.



Rat -> RE: vampires or mudzillas (7/25/2008 11:02:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Polaris Power

me and my buddy that i ride with both have foreman 450's, he has 28x12x12 mudzillas front and rear, and i have 27x12x12 vampires, who do you think will do better in the mud?


No questions about it.   The 28 zillas are giving him a ground clearance advantage.   The Mudzillas are a better tire then Vamps even though some seem to think they are not.


Now I had Mudzillas on an 01 500 ho and I have a friend that also has an 02 500 HO and he had Vamps on his. 

Both were 26 inch tires, we were both running wides on the back (12s) and narrows on the front.  
did not matter were we went (watery swamps, thick peanut butter clay, heavy sticky black mud) the Mudzillas out pulled the vamps in every situation. 

At one point he buried his machine and I drove up behind him in his rutts and then popped out, went around him then to the front and backed up and offered him a hand with a pull.  

I now have 27 inch outlaws but they are coming off before this winter and getting replaced with Mudzillas.

That little open section between the center lugs of the vamps does nothing after a short period when the tips of the lugs get rounded out and worn off from riding on hard pack.     

The only vamp that might outpull a Mudzilla is the EDL but there better be a reachable bottom as they will find that bottom very fast.    

Oh don't make me pull out my angle finder and front section pics of vamps and Mudzillas again.     



J_Fred -> RE: vampires or mudzillas (7/26/2008 3:35:09 PM)

Once again Rat, I disagree, as does pretty much everyone else, but you make good arguments at least.  Well, maybe.

I gave my input on the situation (A SRA 3WD ATV doing better than a IRS ATV with WAY more GC) and you gave yours... (going AROUND the guy that got stuck).  For most mud situations, most people find the Vampires to be a better tire than the Mudzillas.



gmcz71 -> RE: vampires or mudzillas (7/26/2008 3:40:26 PM)

all I have to say is that I found out these Vamps pull GREAT in reverse.  I backed outta and up stuff I wouldnt have thought possible.



J_Fred -> RE: vampires or mudzillas (7/26/2008 3:44:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gmcz71

all I have to say is that I found out these Vamps pull GREAT in reverse.  I backed outta and up stuff I wouldnt have thought possible.


That a big plus for them.  Not many other mud tires (ESPECIALLY the mudzillas) like reverse, at all.



Rat -> RE: vampires or mudzillas (7/26/2008 6:18:53 PM)

[image]https://www.highlifter.com/product_images/product_photo-large_image-767.jpg[/image][image]https://www.highlifter.com/product_images/product_photo-large_image-255.jpg[/image]

Ok I am sitting here looking at two pictures.   One of the front shot of a SS vamp and one of the front section of a Mudzilla.

I don't see a single thing to support vampiers having a better tread design for going forward or in Reverse in mud.

I do see that Vamps have absolutly no side lug for paddling effect int he deep wet stuff or for helping them get a bite on the sides of ruts to help pull them along.  

I do see that vamps lugs come to a sharp point that does nothing in the means of giving them traction on the soft stuff.   It sure helps them move material to the side which causes them to trench out and bury themselves.

Now I told you to not make me bring my angle finder out but you made me do it anyway so give me a min.


tic toc tic toc tic toc tic toc tic toc tic toc tic toc

Ok the vamps lugs start out at about 90 degrees in the center and tapper off to about 25-22 degrees at the outside edge.

the lugs are spaced further apart int he center section which we all know causes a rougher ride and wears the tips of the lugs out at an extreme rate.

The pointed tips on the lugs do nothing for offering forward momentum anyway so I quess that doesn't matter.

Now on to the Mudzillas main lug.

Again starting out at about 90 degrees or so then tappering off to about 45 degrees and holding this angle for a short stretch then they tapper off to about 0 degrees at the very edge with a -10 cup for paddleing effect.

We also have second and third stage lugs that also offer traction. But I don't feel like measuring themout also.

I also see three squared lugs that are staggered which means they each have their on section of bite.   HMM interesting isn't it.

Oh what was Mudzillas design fault again?    I see no faults in the design but I do see a tire that has run side by side in competitions with Outlaws and at one time was the perfered choice by another mud comp team until they modified a another tire design and made it better along with putting their own name on it.



J_Fred -> RE: vampires or mudzillas (7/26/2008 8:29:02 PM)

Great points. 

However, you'll note that that Mudzilla is not mounted, and the Vampire is mounted and, imo, over inflated.  The mudzillas are bad at steepening the tread because they loose all that width when inflated over about 3 PSI(so even recomended does it).  also, the skinny TSL Vampires are not great tires, for their stated size (they run short and narrow).  This would bring the whole tread angle argument into better perspective, I believe.

The open section going down the middle of the tire is the main determinant in mud traction, imo.  Looking at the pictures, you see the mudzilla almost has a constant tread bar down the middle of the tire.  This doesn't allow the lugs to sink in well enough to pull the mudzillas up/over obstacle like a Vampire can.

Also in the discussion of "moving material to the side", making the tire "trench out"... well, "moving" or cleaning out, is what mud tires are supposed to do.  They grab chunks of earth/mud/whatever, and channel it out.  The lugs act as a type of puncture, allowing the tire carcass itself to garner traction and move the tire forward with each rotation, with the lugs cleaning out what the tire carcass cannot adhere to, or find traction on. 
Now, this should stand as an obvious benefit of having less lug length(or rather a good balance), or more spaces in between the lug.  The spacing might be the same, but overall the tread on the mudzilla, as a percentage of overall tire/rubber compound, is far greater than that of a Vampire (or law or GSB). Keep in mind I'm not speaking at all about lug/tread height, but rather the length it covers on the tire.  This allows more lug to sink in, but less tire to touch the terrain.  In reality, the more tire that is touching a high friction surface, the more the tires move forward, or at least this is how I view it. 

I think I've covered how I see it.  I'm not knocking the mudzillas, and I'm not going to bring in bogus "proofs" like sales percentages, how many run them in the "pits" (which is nothing but water, not mud) and things such as that.  It's hard for me, even though Rat argues the point well, to accept that a Mudzilla is a better tire than a Vampire, especially because of the experience I had with them. 



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