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On vs. Off Road Diesel?

 
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On vs. Off Road Diesel? - 6/24/2008 9:06:30 PM   
ARK_SWAMP_RIDER


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I have always thought that it was completely illegal to run off road diesel in your trucks.  I am told the only difference in the dye, and that a truck would run fine on off road diesel.  While filling up our farm truck (01 Dodge 1 ton) I noticed on the pump that it said "Required for all vehicles made after ? (think it said 03) and recommended for all diesels".  By that it seems that buying on road diesel may not be necessary for my 01 Dodge.  Anyone know the law on this?  Thanks for any input.

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RE: On vs. Off Road Diesel? - 6/24/2008 9:08:56 PM   
camogrizz51


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its illegal to run on road period because you dont pay taxes.  I know a lot of people that do though just dont get caught.

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RE: On vs. Off Road Diesel? - 6/24/2008 9:10:22 PM   
1muddyvinson


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your truck will run on off road diesel till you get caught with it. we ran a ford pulling a gooseneck trailer for a business and got stopped and checked. if you get checked and have off road deisel in your tank its a pretty hefty fine.

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RE: On vs. Off Road Diesel? - 6/24/2008 9:11:56 PM   
gmcz71


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yea, you can run it, just be sure to not get caught.

Try to hide a tank of it in the back of the truck, in a toolbox or something? 

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RE: On vs. Off Road Diesel? - 6/24/2008 9:12:58 PM   
gotmuddy


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It has a higher sulphur content, but thats really it.

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RE: On vs. Off Road Diesel? - 6/24/2008 9:15:22 PM   
CTownForeMan


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Back whent he hurricans hit we had to run an additive in our equipment because both diesels were the same.  Now I think they have fixed thi.  Your truck will run on off road diesel but when you get caught it's a great big fine.  Last a heard $1,000 for every mile on the truck.

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RE: On vs. Off Road Diesel? - 6/24/2008 9:18:21 PM   
stacknstor


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In Arkansas it's 1500.00 per tank.

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RE: On vs. Off Road Diesel? - 6/24/2008 9:22:28 PM   
Lokimack


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All diesel is ULSD (ultra low sulphur diesel); the only difference between on-road and off-road fuel is the amount of taxes paid on it. There was a time when you actually had 2 different grades of diesel for on or off road use, but that is no longer the case. Depending upon the tolerances in the fuel system, most vehicles will run on off-road fuel with no problems. However, with newer vehicles the dye can cause problems with the tight tolerances. We use to have #1 and #2 diesel then we went to #1 and #2 both in LSD (low sulphur diesel) and off-road fuel (standard diesel), then it became all LSD and now it is all ULSD. There have been numerous problems when switching a vehicle over from diesel to LSD and recently from LSD to ULSD; the fuel system uses sulphur as a lubricaty agent and the removal of it causes o-rings and seals to dry and crack even though the refinery has added in other lubricators. This progression to ULSD is also largely to blame for the rise in diesel prices.

I used to run off-road fuel in my truck, but its not worth the risk any more compared to the miniscule savings.

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RE: On vs. Off Road Diesel? - 6/24/2008 9:54:27 PM   
outlanderrider


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CTownForeMan

Back whent he hurricans hit we had to run an additive in our equipment because both diesels were the same.  Now I think they have fixed thi.  Your truck will run on off road diesel but when you get caught it's a great big fine.  Last a heard $1,000 for every mile on the truck.


No way... that could be millions of dollars for some people

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RE: On vs. Off Road Diesel? - 6/24/2008 9:58:47 PM   
ARK_SWAMP_RIDER


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I really am not gonna try running this, I just had a question about the legality of it. $1500 isn't worth saving a few cents per gallon. However, the quote on the pump is what got my attention.  It makes sense according to what you have said, newer vehicles require the on road diesel.  The "recommened for earlier years" is what concerns me.  Anyone know the meaning of this?

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RE: On vs. Off Road Diesel? - 6/24/2008 10:11:35 PM   
Kawa650


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At work we had a ford and ran it all the time, only time it got regular stuff is when the place we get fuel from was out of off road. We have a haul truck that gets all the time also, and thats where DPS will really hit you is in a rig if you get cuaght. I get nervos sometimes when im driven it, which it could be that i dont have a CDL also, (but im the only one that can drive it other than the boss, and im a better driver than him, so i think thats another reason i have to drive all the time also). We also have a 01' dodge and when they made the switch to ultra low the injector pump went out and it still has problems from time to time that it never had before.

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RE: On vs. Off Road Diesel? - 6/24/2008 11:21:26 PM   
Rider11x


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I can't even find off road diesel here in Pa. anymore. I buy diesel just for use in my tractor, and hate paying road tax on that!!!
As for the additive, does it add sulfer content?

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RE: On vs. Off Road Diesel? - 6/25/2008 12:52:11 AM   
kodiak660


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rider11x

I can't even find off road diesel here in Pa. anymore. I buy diesel just for use in my tractor, and hate paying road tax on that!!!
As for the additive, does it add sulfer content?


You should be able to keep your receipts and file to get the road tax money back from the state and feds on your off road fuel needs.

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RE: On vs. Off Road Diesel? - 6/25/2008 1:13:31 AM   
Lokimack


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The sulphur content in all diesel is the same now. The additives do not adjust the sulphur content. And as Kawa650 said; the switch is a headache for any that keep a diesel for along period of time.

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RE: On vs. Off Road Diesel? - 6/25/2008 6:42:34 AM   
gotmuddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokimack

All diesel is ULSD (ultra low sulphur diesel); the only difference between on-road and off-road fuel is the amount of taxes paid on it. There was a time when you actually had 2 different grades of diesel for on or off road use, but that is no longer the case. Depending upon the tolerances in the fuel system, most vehicles will run on off-road fuel with no problems. However, with newer vehicles the dye can cause problems with the tight tolerances. We use to have #1 and #2 diesel then we went to #1 and #2 both in LSD (low sulphur diesel) and off-road fuel (standard diesel), then it became all LSD and now it is all ULSD. There have been numerous problems when switching a vehicle over from diesel to LSD and recently from LSD to ULSD; the fuel system uses sulphur as a lubricaty agent and the removal of it causes o-rings and seals to dry and crack even though the refinery has added in other lubricators. This progression to ULSD is also largely to blame for the rise in diesel prices.

I used to run off-road fuel in my truck, but its not worth the risk any more compared to the miniscule savings.


no, off road diesel still has more sulphur, otherwise nearly every tractor around would be leaking fuel like crazy

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RE: On vs. Off Road Diesel? - 6/25/2008 7:05:44 AM   
BuLLg0d


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quote:

ORIGINAL: gotmuddy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokimack

All diesel is ULSD (ultra low sulphur diesel); the only difference between on-road and off-road fuel is the amount of taxes paid on it. There was a time when you actually had 2 different grades of diesel for on or off road use, but that is no longer the case. Depending upon the tolerances in the fuel system, most vehicles will run on off-road fuel with no problems. However, with newer vehicles the dye can cause problems with the tight tolerances. We use to have #1 and #2 diesel then we went to #1 and #2 both in LSD (low sulphur diesel) and off-road fuel (standard diesel), then it became all LSD and now it is all ULSD. There have been numerous problems when switching a vehicle over from diesel to LSD and recently from LSD to ULSD; the fuel system uses sulphur as a lubricaty agent and the removal of it causes o-rings and seals to dry and crack even though the refinery has added in other lubricators. This progression to ULSD is also largely to blame for the rise in diesel prices.

I used to run off-road fuel in my truck, but its not worth the risk any more compared to the miniscule savings.


no, off road diesel still has more sulphur, otherwise nearly every tractor around would be leaking fuel like crazy

Agreed because the low sulfur diesel doesnt have enough lubricant to keep thise old tractors running with burning upo pumps and injectors.

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RE: On vs. Off Road Diesel? - 6/25/2008 9:48:46 AM   
let_it_be_known


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the last i checked around here it was like .03 cents cheaper for off road vs reg USLD.. definitely not worth it.

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RE: On vs. Off Road Diesel? - 6/25/2008 10:10:55 AM   
ARK_SWAMP_RIDER


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There is a bigger difference than that here, not sure what off road is right now, haven't bought it in a while. I was pretty sure it was illegal, but can anyone interpret what I saw on the pump?

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RE: On vs. Off Road Diesel? - 6/25/2008 10:40:33 AM   
Bump530


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im pretty sure what u saw on the pump says that certain type of desiel is required in 07 or newer vehicles.  if the pump dont say that, its not good to run that in the newer desiels, well thats how i understand it anyways

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RE: On vs. Off Road Diesel? - 6/25/2008 11:00:41 AM   
let_it_be_known


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yea pretty much what you said.. i think it said 07 and newer vehicles. meaning they want you to run ULSD in 07-08 trucks.. My 08 DMax requires ULSD bc of the DPF (diesel particulate filter) running a LSD would cause it to regen more and therefore cause worse fuel mileage, quicker clogging DPF, and more burnt sulfur being sucked back up into the turbo through the bypass.

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RE: On vs. Off Road Diesel? - 6/25/2008 11:06:50 AM   
Lokimack


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Here is a good concise article on Diesel Fuel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel

QUOTE:
"Ultra-low sulfur diesel (ULSD) is a term used to describe a standard for defining diesel fuel with substantially lowered sulfur contents. As of 2007, almost every diesel fuel available in America and Europe is the ULSD type."

""untaxed" diesel (sometimes called "off road diesel") is available in the United States, which is available for use primarily in agricultural applications such as fuel for tractors, recreational and utility vehicles or other non-commercial vehicles that do not use public roads. Additionally, this fuel MAY have sulphur levels that exceed the limits for road use using the newer 2007 standards. This untaxed diesel is dyed red for identification purposes,[18] and should a person be found to be using this untaxed diesel fuel for a typically taxed purpose (such as "over-the-road", or driving use), the user can be fined US$10,000. "
END QUOTE.

While my blanket statement may not have been 100% techinically correct, it is definitive enough for our purposes. The refineries are allowed to produce a grade of diesel that has a sulphur content that is higher than ULSD and label it "off-road fuel". However; the fuel you purchase for your tractor at the local CO-OP is almost assuredly ULSD with a red dye in it. My quick research to affirm my information supports the earlier statements. Now I will admit that the diesel fuel That Union Pacific uses in our locomotives is not ULSD, unless we need fuel at a smaller terminal and in that case Sun Coast will send a fuel truck out with red diesel to be used. Will it have dyed ULSD? Maybe. I would bet it does. The true "off-road" diesel is used by railroads, mining companies, the military (Navy included) and ships because of the massive volume these entities use. As a side note; Union Pacific became the worlds largest consumer of diesel fuel in 2005. But it is not cost effective for the refinery to seperate small batches out instead of just making ULSD and dying it for tax purposes and then passing along the cost to the consumer.    

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RE: On vs. Off Road Diesel? - 6/25/2008 11:59:48 AM   
justagoodolboy

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokimack

Here is a good concise article on Diesel Fuel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel

QUOTE:
"Ultra-low sulfur diesel (ULSD) is a term used to describe a standard for defining diesel fuel with substantially lowered sulfur contents. As of 2007, almost every diesel fuel available in America and Europe is the ULSD type."

""untaxed" diesel (sometimes called "off road diesel") is available in the United States, which is available for use primarily in agricultural applications such as fuel for tractors, recreational and utility vehicles or other non-commercial vehicles that do not use public roads. Additionally, this fuel MAY have sulphur levels that exceed the limits for road use using the newer 2007 standards. This untaxed diesel is dyed red for identification purposes,[18] and should a person be found to be using this untaxed diesel fuel for a typically taxed purpose (such as "over-the-road", or driving use), the user can be fined US$10,000. "
END QUOTE.

While my blanket statement may not have been 100% techinically correct, it is definitive enough for our purposes. The refineries are allowed to produce a grade of diesel that has a sulphur content that is higher than ULSD and label it "off-road fuel". However; the fuel you purchase for your tractor at the local CO-OP is almost assuredly ULSD with a red dye in it. My quick research to affirm my information supports the earlier statements. Now I will admit that the diesel fuel That Union Pacific uses in our locomotives is not ULSD, unless we need fuel at a smaller terminal and in that case Sun Coast will send a fuel truck out with red diesel to be used. Will it have dyed ULSD? Maybe. I would bet it does. The true "off-road" diesel is used by railroads, mining companies, the military (Navy included) and ships because of the massive volume these entities use. As a side note; Union Pacific became the worlds largest consumer of diesel fuel in 2005. But it is not cost effective for the refinery to seperate small batches out instead of just making ULSD and dying it for tax purposes and then passing along the cost to the consumer.    


1st, I would not be using Wikipedia as a reference for anything.  That site is a joke.

You are correct that Sulphur is the lubricating factor in the fuel pumps.  However, USLD is not dyed red and sold as "off road", atleast not in TX.  I can assure you this because of two reasons.

1 - my family owns a local gas and oil distribution company where we sell "off-road" or "high sulphur" diesel - whatever you want to call it.  It comes out of LA its sulphur content is higher than ULSD which we get at the same place.

2 - If ULSD was just dyed and used in ag equipment, it would cause massive failure to some expensive pieces of equipment.  I hear told that some of the newer equipment, 2006 and higher, will run on either, but all are recommended to run "off-road" or "high sulphur" diesel.  I base this up my own personal farm equipment and my brothers logging equipment.  All his newer skidders, sheerer and loaders recommend running an additive for lubricity if ULSD is used. 

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RE: On vs. Off Road Diesel? - 6/25/2008 12:14:47 PM   
GODAWGS


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Guys not sure where u are getting your facts, High and Low has the same amount of sulphur in both grades.
Both have 50ppm

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RE: On vs. Off Road Diesel? - 6/25/2008 12:22:14 PM   
Lokimack


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Wikipedia was easy and quick, I don't have time to do a full thesis type research.

We closed our Mobil Petroleum and lubricants distributorship in '96 when the CO-OP started selling fuel.So I have a background there albeit not as current as yourself. And yes the ULSD has the potential to cause problems in the older fuel systems that used rubber instead of nitrile or now viton for seals and o-rings. But some older engines have problems and some don't, there is no rhyme or reason as to which do and which don't.

I would be very interested in seeing something that will help support your argument. I am a big enough person to admit if I am wrong and learn from it. I just need some information to convince me that the information I have is incorrect. 

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RE: On vs. Off Road Diesel? - 6/25/2008 12:48:44 PM   
let_it_be_known


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GODAWGS

Guys not sure where u are getting your facts, High and Low has the same amount of sulphur in both grades.
Both have 50ppm


LSD= 500ppm
ULSD=15ppm

Thats why its now called Ultra Low Sulphur

< Message edited by let_it_be_known -- 6/25/2008 12:50:00 PM >


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RE: On vs. Off Road Diesel? - 6/25/2008 1:14:37 PM   
runnwo

 

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I wish you guys were correct about all the fuel being ULSD.  It is not.  There is alot of LSD out there yet.  I work for a large engine company and I know for a fact that LSD in an '07 or newer engine will cause a very expensive repair to the customer.  It does more than just cause more regens,  with the EGR and higher sulfur content and the DPF's you end up running the sulur and water (condensation) through the engine,  this is the same thing as putting a very very concentrated battery acid through the system.  It will damage all the parts it touches, especially aluminum parts.  Some of road fuel is ULSD some is not. some is higher than LSD (over 1500 ppm). 
I know in Illinois the fine for offroad fuel on road starts at $10,000 plus so much for every gal of tank capacity of the vehicle.  this gets expensive quick.

(in reply to let_it_be_known)
Post #: 26
RE: On vs. Off Road Diesel? - 6/25/2008 1:18:40 PM   
gotmuddy


Posts: 21547
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From: N. Arkansas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: runnwo

I wish you guys were correct about all the fuel being ULSD.  It is not.  There is alot of LSD out there yet.  I work for a large engine company and I know for a fact that LSD in an '07 or newer engine will cause a very expensive repair to the customer.  It does more than just cause more regens,  with the EGR and higher sulfur content and the DPF's you end up running the sulur and water (condensation) through the engine,  this is the same thing as putting a very very concentrated battery acid through the system.  It will damage all the parts it touches, especially aluminum parts.  Some of road fuel is ULSD some is not. some is higher than LSD (over 1500 ppm). 
I know in Illinois the fine for offroad fuel on road starts at $10,000 plus so much for every gal of tank capacity of the vehicle.  this gets expensive quick.


off road diesel shouldnt be low sulphur anywhere.

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quote:

ORIGINAL: baf004

That'll buff right out.

(in reply to runnwo)
Post #: 27
RE: On vs. Off Road Diesel? - 6/25/2008 2:19:55 PM   
ARK_SWAMP_RIDER


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OK, in a nutshell, there are 2 grades of on road diesel, low sulfer and ultra low.  The ultra low is required for all 07+ and recommended for earlier models.  Off road diesel has even more sulfer than the on road, makeing it not worth running in a vehicle.  Am I close to right? Thanks everyone, you have been a big help.

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(in reply to gotmuddy)
Post #: 28