Help understanding the cat clutching
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Help understanding the cat clutching

 
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Help understanding the cat clutching - 1/7/2008 4:53:12 PM   
kscowboy


Posts: 8347
Joined: 3/6/2004
From: Aubrey Texas
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Ok i need some insite on the cat trannie since, more than likely, my next bike will be an auto cat.  When i had my prairie 650 i was very familiar with the kawi trannie, the primary and secondary springs, sheves and how the whole trannie design worked (Kawi has the worst design in my opinion).  But i like to know my bikes inside and out and i am also familiar with the manual cat trannie.  But i need to start doing my homework and getting familiar with the cat design (Especially the 700h1 and the TC trannies).  Is there a link to, lets say, nyrocs or anyother site that can explain the basics with these trannies?  Thanks KS

< Message edited by GWC -- 1/9/2008 8:46:00 PM >


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TEAM GOR!LLA
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08 800 outlander max xt
TUNED BY PIT PROVEN PERFORMANCE

08 CAN AM NATIONALS SWAMPACROSS 3RD PLACE
08 CAN AM NATIONALS MUDBOG 3RD PLACE
08 RURAL SHADE RACE MUDBOG 1ST PLACE
08 HOMECOMING SWAMPACROSS 1ST PLACE
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Post #: 1
RE: Help understanding the cat trannie - 1/8/2008 9:29:33 AM   
engie


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From: Jackson/Starkville, MS
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I have alot of input on this one...I'm going to write an article for La Migra Tx's magazine site with this info as well, so it isn't just lost in the "web" of this forum...

Thundercat Transmission(for reference purpose, all AC belt drives are practically the same)


Starting from the crank:
  1. The wet(centrifugal) clutch is number 28 in the diagram.  This component sits inside the crankcase cover and is bathed in engine oil. The wet-clutch is actually directly bolted onto the crankshaft(#26 shows the bolt).  As the motor turns, so does the wet-clutch.  At a certain rpm(this can be adjusted by changing stall springs, in the same manner as installing a manual clutch kit, with the same effect), the centrifugal force begins to become greater than the spring force holding the clutch plates(seen on the outer circumference of the wet-clutch) in place.  At this rpm, the clutch plates begin to "fly out". In doing this, they eventually grab the clutch housing(#22) thus turning the primary transmission and initiating quad movement. Once rpm falls below "engagement point", or "back to idle" the force of the springs becomes greater than the centrifugal force on the clutches and therefore pulls the clutches back in.  Movement is ceased and the quad is at rest...
  2. When the wet-clutch grabs the clutch housing at X RPM, this engages the primary transmission.  The primary is made up of two sheaves.  While the inner sheave(#17) is locked in a fixed position and has nothing to do with engagement and gear ratio, the outer sheave(#15) slides side to side along a shaft(#13) and is what actually changes primary gear ratio(I say primary here, because it is a separate, but interconnected, event than secondary gear ratio, which will be discussed next).  The outer sheave contains 8 rollers which are held in place by a fixed outer plate(#11).  These rollers travel on ramps and rely on centrifugal force to determine the primary gear ratio of the quad.  This process is quite similar in function to a baitcasting fishing reel.  As rpms increase, the primary turns faster.  The faster it turns, the more the rollers want to "fly out".  This forces the outer primary sheave(#15) to go inward on the shaft(#13).  As this happens, the belt goes up higher on the sheaves, and the gear ratio is raised.  Once you let off the throttle, rpms will drop, and the primary weights will begin to go back into place at the base of the ramps.  At this point, your probably wandering..."Ok, so where is the resistance and why does the rollers return to the base of the ramp".  This function is controlled by the secondary spring, which is my next topic. 
  3. The secondary clutch(#1) is what provides output to the secondary transmission(where the belt drive quad becomes identical to the gear driven).  This clutch is much simpler in nature than both the primary and the wet-clutch.  It consists of an outer and an inner sheave, forced together by a large secondary spring.  At rest, the belt rides in the very top of these secondary sheaves because of the spring.  As rpms increase, the primary engages the belt and it begins to rise up in the primary.  In doing this, the belt begins to ride lower in the secondary and again, gear ratio is increased.  As rpms return closer to idle, the secondary spring begins to have greater force than primary rollers(the two controlling factors of actual gear ratio here) and the belt starts to ride higher in the secondary, thus riding lower in the primary, and in this case lowering gear ratio.
This is all I have time for right now.  I'll get to the advantages of modifying the system via clutch kit, changing the gear ratio by changing the clutching, and how to maximize efficiency later on as time provides.

< Message edited by engie -- 1/8/2008 9:33:42 AM >


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Currently building 4 race motors and awaiting the class breakdowns to start on the rest!!!

quote:


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Post #: 2
RE: Help understanding the cat trannie - 1/8/2008 10:49:28 AM   
1badkittykat


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so is that wet clutch in the motor putting a lot of trash in the oil??? kind of like the honda's automatic trannys??

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Post #: 3
RE: Help understanding the cat trannie - 1/8/2008 10:55:37 AM   
engie


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From: Jackson/Starkville, MS
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The wet clutch does dirty the oil, yes...

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Team Throwed Offroad crew chief

Currently building 4 race motors and awaiting the class breakdowns to start on the rest!!!

quote:


A second place trophy is only useful as a doorstop!

(in reply to 1badkittykat)
Post #: 4
RE: Help understanding the cat trannie - 1/8/2008 6:41:53 PM   
engie


Posts: 5183
Joined: 7/9/2006
From: Jackson/Starkville, MS
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Ok...Now it's time for part two.  Modifying and upgrading the cvt transmission...

We'll start in the same order as previously, from the inside out.  For reference purposes, here is the Thundercat diagram once again.

  1. The wet clutch.  This is modified by changing out the stall springs, which "hold in" the clutch plates(the outer radius of number 28).  In stock form, the springs are matched to engine rpm, meaning there is little-to-no stall.  This is why once you give it gas, it goes.  There are a number of aftermarket springs available.  These springs increase stall in increments of 500 rpms.  By increasing the stall, this effectively means that it takes more engine rpm to engage the wet clutch and thus the primary transmission.  By having this increased stall, it means that the quad is farther into the "powerband" when it starts moving.  This improves off the line performance because, essentially, the motor is already spinning faster when it engages the wet clutch.  It should also be noted that, although this increases the rpm at which the belt engages, it does not effect top speed.  Once the wet-clutch "flies out" and locks up with the clutch basket(#22), it acts the same as it did before the mod, meaning it "locks" the primary transmission into the crankshaft and they still turn at the same rpm.  The downsides to modifying this is the lowend powerband becomes somewhat less predictable, meaning that it tends to "lurch" when engaging the belt.  Increasing stall on the wet-clutch will also increase the wear properties on the clutch plates.  They will wear out faster due to increased stall.  This is simply because the increased rpm of engagement means they have to "grab" that much harder and the friction required to grab will wear on the clutchplates.  How much faster is anybody's guess...I definately wouldn't be concerned with it if you are a mudrider.
  2. The primary transmission.  This is adjusted by changing the weight of the rollers(#14) and modifying the distance that they can travel, which can be accomplished in a number of ways.  First, the stock weights are considered good "all around" weights.  This is less than ideal for a mudrider.  In order to keep the quad in low longer, you should go with lighter weights.  Lighter weights take more force to fly out, which effectively keeps the quad in low gear longer.  It's important to setup your secondary spring first(we will discuss this next), as the secondary spring setup will have a major effect on the weight of rollers that you can use.  Ideally after setting up your secondary, you get rollers that "barely" make it to the top of the travel path.  This would provide the lowest gear possible, but would also be a matter of trial and error.  Once you decide on the proper weight for your application, it's time to maximize the efficiency of the primary transmission.  The first thing you should do is chalkline your primary sheaves perpendicular to the travel path of the belt.  Once you do this, you want to rev the transmission and run the belt from as low as it will go in the sheave to as high as it will go.  Chances are, you will have between 1/4-1" of chalk left on both the bottomend and topend of the sheaves.  This means that your primary transmission is not running as efficiently as it should.  Ideally, the belt should run from the very bottom of the sheaves to the very top.  By modifying it to do so, it will allow the quad to have much, much more bottomend and topend power.  This effectively widens the powerband.  There are a number of ways to do this, which I will cover later tonight as time permits...
  3. The secondary spring.  This should actually come second in this process, as the spring you are using, or the modifications your doing to the stock spring will have a direct correlation to the weight of the primary rollers that you can use.  By stiffening this spring, it will hold the secondary in low gear longer as well as speed up the backshift of the primary.  This has the reverse effect on the "ramping up" of the primary, however.  By changing the spring rate of the secondary to a stiffer spring, it makes it harder for the primary to shift up(weight fly out) thus keeping it in low gear longer.   For this reason, you need to match the spring with the weights.  The downside to stiffening the secondary spring is that, until the primary modifications are done, it will cost you topspeed.  This is because by stiffening the spring, the belt tends to stay higher in the secondary. 
If these mods are done correctly, you should be able to dramatically increase grip on the belt, lowend power, highend power, and overall give the quad a wider powerband.  The results here are very drastic...from vastly improved wheelying potential, to a 5-7mph increase in topspeed and sometimes more.  As I get more time, I will further elaborate on the possible methods to modify the primary, thus maximizing efficiency, lowend, and topend power.

< Message edited by engie -- 1/8/2008 6:45:09 PM >


_____________________________

Team Throwed Offroad crew chief

Currently building 4 race motors and awaiting the class breakdowns to start on the rest!!!

quote:


A second place trophy is only useful as a doorstop!
Post #: 5
RE: Help understanding the cat trannie - 1/8/2008 8:08:15 PM   
kscowboy


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From: Aubrey Texas
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After reading this i am still a little in the grey here.  The wet clutch springs should raise the stall rpm right?  If so then if you just adjusted the secondary spring  and added different weights you shouldnt see any stall just the amount of time it stays in lower part of the gearing?????? 

_____________________________

2008 C.M.R. OPEN MUD BOG NATIONAL CHAMPION

TEAM GOR!LLA
POWERED BY CAN AM
#44 REGAN

08 800 outlander max xt
TUNED BY PIT PROVEN PERFORMANCE

08 CAN AM NATIONALS SWAMPACROSS 3RD PLACE
08 CAN AM NATIONALS MUDBOG 3RD PLACE
08 RURAL SHADE RACE MUDBOG 1ST PLACE
08 HOMECOMING SWAMPACROSS 1ST PLACE
08 HOMECOMING MUD BOG 1ST PLACE

www.myspace.com/kscowboy13
Post #: 6
RE: Help understanding the cat trannie - 1/8/2008 8:19:40 PM   
GWC


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Joined: 5/7/2004
From: Kansas
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yes the wet clutch springs will do the same thing as it did in your 500 clutch kit, it is the same set up and this is where the stall would come from..

yeah if you dont add  the wet springs you wont have any stall... but leaving them out would be like leaving them out of your 500m. which i would not do after having them i like them..

_____________________________

08 650H1 LE
Warn 3.0
Snorkeled,Rad relocated
Custom mounted gauges
muffler tweaked
Dynojet, slide mod, spring clipped
Custom clutch kit, 4.0 gears
2" lift, HL springs, HL spacers
"G" axles
29.5 Laws on custom LE wheels
30" MLs on Black Castle Roks
05 500m
Dynojet,slide mod spring clipped
muffler tweaked
Hidden snorkel
HL temp gauge
26" 589MTs on ITP type 6s
Hard.Pack.Arctic.Cat

(in reply to kscowboy)
Post #: 7
RE: Help understanding the cat trannie - 1/8/2008 8:28:03 PM   
GWC


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Joined: 5/7/2004
From: Kansas
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cool its on tomorrow..lol i am going to mark the sheeves and start driling out my stock weights to make them lighter, i should be able to do this untill the belt stops making it to the top of the pulleys right.??? then i will be at the lightest weight i can use and still get full shift out on the top end...

right ..??  and this should pretty much pull the hardest all the way threw the power band.. ??  this is how i see this happening anyway..lol

_____________________________

08 650H1 LE
Warn 3.0
Snorkeled,Rad relocated
Custom mounted gauges
muffler tweaked
Dynojet, slide mod, spring clipped
Custom clutch kit, 4.0 gears
2" lift, HL springs, HL spacers
"G" axles
29.5 Laws on custom LE wheels
30" MLs on Black Castle Roks
05 500m
Dynojet,slide mod spring clipped
muffler tweaked
Hidden snorkel
HL temp gauge
26" 589MTs on ITP type 6s
Hard.Pack.Arctic.Cat
Post #: 8
RE: Help understanding the cat trannie - 1/9/2008 8:52:16 PM   
GWC


Posts: 21283
Joined: 5/7/2004
From: Kansas
Status: offline
iam putting the link to this at the top in the sticky..

_____________________________

08 650H1 LE
Warn 3.0
Snorkeled,Rad relocated
Custom mounted gauges
muffler tweaked
Dynojet, slide mod, spring clipped
Custom clutch kit, 4.0 gears
2" lift, HL springs, HL spacers
"G" axles
29.5 Laws on custom LE wheels
30" MLs on Black Castle Roks
05 500m
Dynojet,slide mod spring clipped
muffler tweaked
Hidden snorkel
HL temp gauge
26" 589MTs on ITP type 6s
Hard.Pack.Arctic.Cat

(in reply to GWC)
Post #: 9
RE: Help understanding the cat trannie - 1/10/2008 11:05:46 PM   
engie


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From: Jackson/Starkville, MS
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Ok, finally going to finish this up...

ow it's time to discuss maximizing travel on the primary sheaves.  This can and will provide the quad with a much wider powerband.  It will improve both low end and top end speed/power.   It should be noted that these mods are generally more extreme than those discussed previously.  For the most part, they are not manufactured and can not be bought.  They must be built and each individual quad will differ here.  Those willing to go through the trouble will be rewarded with a large overall power gain, perhaps the single best mod you can do to a wet-clutch type transmission. 

Once again, the Thundercat tranny (for reference purposes)



First, let's discuss gaining lowend power.  This is where it is important to chalkline the primary(#15 and/or #17).  After chalk lining it, you want to rev the motor while in neutral to max travel both on the topend and bottomend.  Now, notice how far up/down the sheaves the belt travels.  Here, we're focusing on getting it to the very bottom of the primary sheaves.  There are several ways to do this.  One is to go with/make smaller diameter rollers and the other is to shim the primary.  For ease of discussion and completion, we will only discuss shimming.  I can discuss custom-building rollers at a later time.  The shims, in this case, go between #17 and #13.  How much you can shim and need to shim will vary from machine to machine.  It often depends on how much tooth contact you can have on the fixed outer primary(#12).  This is a matter of trial and error.  It may be possible to maximize the lowend travel of the belt just by shimming, or it may not, depending on machines.  If the travel is not maximized, then it is time to discuss building smaller weights, or halfmooning the primary sheave(#15) roller travel path.  By halfmooning the ends of the travel paths in the shapes of the rollers via dremel tool, you can get slightly more roller travel.  Generally this will be more than enough to maximize lowend belt travel, and thus maximize the lowend power potential within the CVT transmission. 

In doing the previous mods, you will lose topend speed.  Now it's time to discuss how to get it all back and then some.  Here's how.  There are a couple schools of thought in modifying this.  The first is halfmooning the top of the roller-ramps on the Outer Primary(#15).  In doing this, you allow the rollers to travel farther up the travel path, thus allowing the primary to close more fully.  This gives back the stock topend, and if done to a large enough extent, will increase top end speed, depending on how it chalklines.  You want the belt to travel to the very top of the primary sheaves to maximize top speed.  In some cases, this may be enough to make it happen but often it will not.  In this case, it is important to take more drastic measures to get it to the top.  The most obvious way to do this is by modifying the primary fixed sheave(#17). 
This entails cutting and reshaping/rewelding the outer top of the roller path.  This picture shows the process. Basically, you are bending the top of the travel path down, in order to force the primary sheave to fly farther in when the rollers are at the top, thus maximizing the topend travel of the rollers.  This will be a delicate process in order to get it correct.  Bend a little, test, bend a little, test again.  Eventually you will get it perfect and then it is time to weld it up...

From there, you are finished.  You now have a quad with much better wheely potential and generally speaking, 5-7 more mph on the topend while also having a stronger overall powerband.  Hopefully this article has helped or informed many of you.  Feel free to ask me any questions you have.  Thanks...

EDIT:  Please credit the shim mod and fixed primary sheave mod to Coop45 on Nyroc and the halfmooning travel path idea to Bjowett on Nyroc and here at Highlifter.  They originated these mods, I just put them all together.

Thanks...

_____________________________

Team Throwed Offroad crew chief

Currently building 4 race motors and awaiting the class breakdowns to start on the rest!!!

quote:


A second place trophy is only useful as a doorstop!

(in reply to GWC)
Post #: 10
RE: Help understanding the cat trannie - 1/11/2008 7:11:39 AM   
GWC


Posts: 21283
Joined: 5/7/2004
From: Kansas
Status: offline
Thanks engie

I shimmed my primary yesterday and all i could do was about 1mm on it just was not enough of the shaft sticking out for more,so i will be getting smaller rollers to gain more low end travel.. you can see between the sheeve and the roller cover there is room for atleast another 1mm or so to gain some more travel from the smaller rollers.

Should the belt make it clear to the top (very top) of the sheeves when reving out..? mine is alittle low and wont go any higher because of the rev limiter..  just thinking if i want my full top end it looks like i might need to do so work on the roller cover..

thanks for taking the time to make this post  it help seeing it in black and white rather than just in my head...lol

_____________________________

08 650H1 LE
Warn 3.0
Snorkeled,Rad relocated
Custom mounted gauges
muffler tweaked
Dynojet, slide mod, spring clipped
Custom clutch kit, 4.0 gears
2" lift, HL springs, HL spacers
"G" axles
29.5 Laws on custom LE wheels
30" MLs on Black Castle Roks
05 500m
Dynojet,slide mod spring clipped
muffler tweaked
Hidden snorkel
HL temp gauge
26" 589MTs on ITP type 6s
Hard.Pack.Arctic.Cat

(in reply to engie)
Post #: 11
RE: Help understanding the cat trannie - 2/29/2008 10:14:29 PM   
JB3231


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Joined: 3/28/2004
From: Forney
Status: offline
Looks almost identical to the Grizzly transmission.

(in reply to GWC)
Post #: 12
RE: Help understanding the cat trannie - 3/2/2008 3:11:07 PM   
engie


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From: Jackson/Starkville, MS
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They are very similar(AC/Zuki/Yami).  The only difference is that the yami uses greased rollers while the other two use dry rollers.

GWC should add his experience with shimming the primary on an H1...It didn't work quite how it does for the Zuki/Yami trannys...

_____________________________

Team Throwed Offroad crew chief

Currently building 4 race motors and awaiting the class breakdowns to start on the rest!!!

quote:


A second place trophy is only useful as a doorstop!

(in reply to JB3231)
Post #: 13
RE: Help understanding the cat trannie - 3/2/2008 3:25:01 PM   
GWC


Posts: 21283
Joined: 5/7/2004
From: Kansas
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Yes i shimmed the primary clutch and it did drop the belt to low and caused it to slip alittle and then grap, I would say AC has it set as low as it will go stock and this is one reason the H1 has great lowend allready.
Iam going to cut bend and weld the roller 'cover' to gain some top end back when i take out the shim i added.

_____________________________

08 650H1 LE
Warn 3.0
Snorkeled,Rad relocated
Custom mounted gauges
muffler tweaked
Dynojet, slide mod, spring clipped
Custom clutch kit, 4.0 gears
2" lift, HL springs, HL spacers
"G" axles
29.5 Laws on custom LE wheels
30" MLs on Black Castle Roks
05 500m
Dynojet,slide mod spring clipped
muffler tweaked
Hidden snorkel
HL temp gauge
26" 589MTs on ITP type 6s
Hard.Pack.Arctic.Cat

(in reply to engie)
Post #: 14
RE: Help understanding the cat trannie - 3/2/2008 3:27:23 PM   
bustedknuckles


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"Iam going to cut bend and weld the roller 'cover' "

WHAT?

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Post #: 15
RE: Help understanding the cat trannie - 3/2/2008 8:01:03 PM   
Toy4trax

 

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Somebody pin this! Great info once again from our neighborhood genius, ENGIE!

(in reply to bustedknuckles)
Post #: 16
RE: Help understanding the cat trannie - 3/2/2008 8:05:16 PM   
engie


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From: Jackson/Starkville, MS
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Lol, already been pinned for awhile

BK, He's talking about modifying the primary fixed outer sheave to achieve more topend.  It's pictured in my last post on this topic...

_____________________________

Team Throwed Offroad crew chief

Currently building 4 race motors and awaiting the class breakdowns to start on the rest!!!

quote:


A second place trophy is only useful as a doorstop!

(in reply to Toy4trax)
Post #: 17
RE: Help understanding the cat trannie - 3/2/2008 8:06:11 PM   
GWC


Posts: 21283
Joined: 5/7/2004
From: Kansas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: bustedknuckles

"Iam going to cut bend and weld the roller 'cover' "

WHAT?


the cover that goes over the rollers, when you install a clutch kit you lose top end my belt does not ride all the way to the top of the pulleys now it comes about 3/4" from the top.
If you cut the cover where the roller run and bend them in about 2mm it will allow the roller to push the pulleys together more to gain back your top speed, this is not a real big deal to me but thought once iam in there i might as well do it...

_____________________________

08 650H1 LE
Warn 3.0
Snorkeled,Rad relocated
Custom mounted gauges
muffler tweaked
Dynojet, slide mod, spring clipped
Custom clutch kit, 4.0 gears
2" lift, HL springs, HL spacers
"G" axles
29.5 Laws on custom LE wheels
30" MLs on Black Castle Roks
05 500m
Dynojet,slide mod spring clipped
muffler tweaked
Hidden snorkel
HL temp gauge
26" 589MTs on ITP type 6s
Hard.Pack.Arctic.Cat

(in reply to bustedknuckles)
Post #: 18
RE: Help understanding the cat trannie - 4/8/2008 9:09:33 AM   
david zuzuki

 

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From: halifax nova scotia
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When you cut that roller cover(ramp)wont you also take away from your mid rang power as a result of changing the angle weather it be(2mm) or 3or4,you are closing the gap also throu the shift rang arent you

(in reply to GWC)
Post #: 19
RE: Help understanding the cat trannie - 4/8/2008 9:21:21 AM   
GWC


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Joined: 5/7/2004
From: Kansas
Status: offline
I would not think it would take away midrange power as you not changeing the pulley face angles, the belt will still travel in the same fashion as it did before it will now just be able to get to the to of the pulleys again to get back lost top end speed. Iam sure this is not the best way to regain lost speed but it felt like it worked great on mine and i got back almost 5mph in low range and around the same in high.
jmop

_____________________________

08 650H1 LE
Warn 3.0
Snorkeled,Rad relocated
Custom mounted gauges
muffler tweaked
Dynojet, slide mod, spring clipped
Custom clutch kit, 4.0 gears
2" lift, HL springs, HL spacers
"G" axles
29.5 Laws on custom LE wheels
30" MLs on Black Castle Roks
05 500m
Dynojet,slide mod spring clipped
muffler tweaked
Hidden snorkel
HL temp gauge
26" 589MTs on ITP type 6s
Hard.Pack.Arctic.Cat

(in reply to david zuzuki)
Post #: 20
RE: Help understanding the cat trannie - 4/8/2008 9:46:27 AM   
david zuzuki

 

Posts: 53
Joined: 2/29/2008
From: halifax nova scotia
Status: offline
I  forgot to ask you, how far back did you cut and how much did you bend the ramp down, i will defenetly try this mod if my clutch isn't shifting out all the way.thanks

(in reply to GWC)
Post #: 21
RE: Help understanding the cat trannie - 4/8/2008 10:10:46 AM   
GWC


Posts: 21283
Joined: 5/7/2004
From: Kansas
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i cut it back aout 3/8 of a inch then i bent it down about like the photo above allmost 2mm, really cant go any more then that because the rollers will try to hang up on the ends of the cover.
I have read that guys that bend theirs more then 2mm have to weld on the end of the cover to make it longer so the rollers wont catch and hang up..

_____________________________

08 650H1 LE
Warn 3.0
Snorkeled,Rad relocated
Custom mounted gauges
muffler tweaked
Dynojet, slide mod, spring clipped
Custom clutch kit, 4.0 gears
2" lift, HL springs, HL spacers
"G" axles
29.5 Laws on custom LE wheels
30" MLs on Black Castle Roks
05 500m
Dynojet,slide mod spring clipped
muffler tweaked
Hidden snorkel
HL temp gauge
26" 589MTs on ITP type 6s
Hard.Pack.Arctic.Cat

(in reply to david zuzuki)
Post #: 22
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