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Swamp Witch Facts - 10/15/2008 8:08:54 AM   
jd2210


Posts: 501
Joined: 6/5/2007
From: NorthWestern Ontario
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Just the facts.

4 Swamp Witch tires all 28"x12"x12"

Tire height before mounting was 27.25" and width was 11 3/4"
Tire weight was 33 pounds for 3 of them and 33.5 pounds for the 4th



Mounted heights (jack removed, weight of the machine on the tires all done with a level)
-at five pounds three of them were 28" on the nose. Not 28 and a bit or 27 something rounded up. 28" EXACTLY
the 4th tire was 28 1/8th

- at 4 pounds they all shrunk exactly 1/8th of an inch



Mounted widths:
- at five pounds the widths varied but the narrowest was 11" and the widest was 11 1/4"

- at 4 pounds the widths changed very little. The widest was the same but the narrowest was now 11 1/8"



After changing over from 27" mudbugs (10's and 12's) that had virtually no wear (some rounding on the leading edges) the bike changed as follows:

-gained 28 pounds of total weight (keep in mind the fronts used to be 10")

-gained 2" of ground clearance with both sets having 5 pounds of air in them. (1 3/4" gained in the back, 2" gained in the rear, 2" gained at it's lowest spot.)

_____________________________

2007 Brute Force 650i
SS112 Rims with 4 28x12x12 Swamp Witches
High Lifter Outlaw Super Duty Extreme Clutch Maroon Primary Yellow Secondary
MIMB Snorkel
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Post #: 1
RE: Swamp Witch Facts - 10/15/2008 11:18:38 AM   
BrutePhorce


Posts: 117
Joined: 12/12/2006
From: Northern Ontario, Can
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Since you switched from Bugs....
How do you find the Witches compared to the Bugs?  I know you changed size, but generally, how do they compare?



Also, you mentionned 2" gained of GC... is that because the Bugs measured short? (the 27" were in fact 26"?)

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Post #: 2
RE: Swamp Witch Facts - 10/15/2008 2:39:53 PM   
jd2210


Posts: 501
Joined: 6/5/2007
From: NorthWestern Ontario
Status: offline
Yes they were short. That's why I gained so much GC.

So far they are a very comparable tire for most applications. I only have 5 or so hours on them so far so I'm still honing my technique before I declare a winner. They have almost identical lug depth and both have the same amount of lugs. They have similar steer vibration to the bugs which is a surprise considering the extra 2" up front. They do steer harder but not much. For the little time I have on them I'd give the nod to the 'bugs in thick peanut butter mud and soft clay. It seems throddle control is much more important on the Witches and they really break loose easily when the bugs would grab. They also need more speed than the bugs to stay clean.

There are also a couple of areas I like the witches better though too. They can climb out of a side rut 1 billion times better than a bug which shocked me because they don't look like much of a side lug, but the side lug they do have is really strong at climbing. They are better in bottmless mud,but keep in mind the 12's versus the 10's again. I like them a bit better on the trail but I suspect that had a truly been comparing apples to apples (same width's and sizes) that I would like the Witches a lot bteer than the bugs. They seem to be able to take a really hard corner better and the flatter profile absorbs the bump rather than springing you up like the bugs did.

Of course for me muskeg is by far the most important comparison and the Witches win hands down. I stronly feel it's the extra width and height that I like though, so it isn't a slight on the 'bugs. It's more of a vote for 12's all around and the bigger tire part of the equation.


Based on what I've seen so far I'd say the witches take a better rider to get through the mud but are the same or better in all other applications.

_____________________________

2007 Brute Force 650i
SS112 Rims with 4 28x12x12 Swamp Witches
High Lifter Outlaw Super Duty Extreme Clutch Maroon Primary Yellow Secondary
MIMB Snorkel
2500 lb Warn


1985 Honda Big Red 250
Beat

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Post #: 3
RE: Swamp Witch Facts - 10/15/2008 4:43:44 PM   
gmcz71


Posts: 9506
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good review, got any pics of the 28x12's?

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Post #: 4
RE: Swamp Witch Facts - 10/16/2008 10:16:11 AM   
jd2210


Posts: 501
Joined: 6/5/2007
From: NorthWestern Ontario
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The Camera is with my wife. She's coming home tonight so I'll try to take a few pics. They won't be great but they'll be something. I'm taking the Brute out this afternoon for work so I'll give any performance updates I see as well.

_____________________________

2007 Brute Force 650i
SS112 Rims with 4 28x12x12 Swamp Witches
High Lifter Outlaw Super Duty Extreme Clutch Maroon Primary Yellow Secondary
MIMB Snorkel
2500 lb Warn


1985 Honda Big Red 250
Beat

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Post #: 5
RE: Swamp Witch Facts - 10/23/2008 8:20:17 AM   
jd2210


Posts: 501
Joined: 6/5/2007
From: NorthWestern Ontario
Status: offline
Alright I give up trying to post pictures on here. I've been reading through the picture posting thread since I got here and I can't get anything to work. When I make the post it looks fine and then when I click submit all that show up is an x. I even set up a frigging account in webshots and I can't get them to post.

Anyway, if you want to see pics of what it looks like with the new Witches click the link in my sig which will take you to my Webshots account. I have 7 or 8 pics there, some of them showing how much they stick out (I named the album 28x12x12 Swampwitch). Oh and the 8th pic is an example of what happens to your axles when you spend a day running in muskeg. I had to stop 4 or 5 times and clean it out BEFORE I took that pic. But where I was going (for work) was pure muskeg and I needed to get through it to mark the boundaries. I can't believe I have never ruined a boot or seal. And yes, it takes forever to clean. Oh well at least I get to ride a 4 wheeler for work purposes.

< Message edited by jd2210 -- 10/23/2008 8:45:00 AM >


_____________________________

2007 Brute Force 650i
SS112 Rims with 4 28x12x12 Swamp Witches
High Lifter Outlaw Super Duty Extreme Clutch Maroon Primary Yellow Secondary
MIMB Snorkel
2500 lb Warn


1985 Honda Big Red 250
Beat

My Pictures and Videos

(in reply to jd2210)
Post #: 6
RE: Swamp Witch Facts - 11/6/2008 10:14:35 AM   
jd2210


Posts: 501
Joined: 6/5/2007
From: NorthWestern Ontario
Status: offline
bump for dbleezy.


Also a short performance update now that I have lots of seat time on them.

1) If you can properly monitor your throddle they will mud very similar to my old MudBugs. Both thick mud and watery mud. For inexperienced riders I would recommend the bugs instead. They clean out better than the witches and aren't nearly as dependant on throddle control.

2) They are superior to the MudBug's in Muskeg. This may be due to the wider tires up front, but they don't don't dig nearly as quickly and you can go through a lot of holes slower than you can with the bugs.

3) They are equal to the bugs in creeks.

4) They ride worse than the bugs. This once again may be due to the 12's up front or maybe even the lower air pressure, but I find they don't smooth out as well as the bugs do over 8mph. They really vibrate at around 60k's.

5) They back out of holes better than the bugs did. I would put their backing abilities on par with a Mudlite.

6)They are better in sand than the bugs.

7)They climb out of a mud hole better than the bugs did. Not to sound like a broken record but once again the 12's up front I think are to credit for this. The skinny bugs couldn't climb a wet log or rock or the side of a mud put for the life of them. The Witch's side lug doesn't look like much but I have been very impressed with their climbing abilities out of the mud put or over a log that you can't hit square on.

8) These tires are much more sensitive to air pressure than the bugs were. I could run 3.5 to 5 in the bugs and they really didn't seem to change too much, but for these a half a pound makes them a different tire altogether.

9)no comment on snow because it isn't deep enough to do a test.

10) The 12's up front really don't make a whole lot of difference on the steering. This may be a set up I stick with. I notice more and more people running 12's all around. They definately ride worse at higher speeds but for me that isn't much more than maybe 5% of the time so I really don't care.

Overall I like these a lot for a good all around tire. If you anything over 40% or so mud running I wouldn't recommend them though. If you do any kind of mixed riding though they are a great option.

_____________________________

2007 Brute Force 650i
SS112 Rims with 4 28x12x12 Swamp Witches
High Lifter Outlaw Super Duty Extreme Clutch Maroon Primary Yellow Secondary
MIMB Snorkel
2500 lb Warn


1985 Honda Big Red 250
Beat

My Pictures and Videos

(in reply to jd2210)
Post #: 7
RE: Swamp Witch Facts - 11/6/2008 11:08:11 AM   
lips450


Posts: 1149
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here mine facts compared to yours, its simular in some but others wow your out to lunch lol

1)
quote:

If you can properly monitor your throddle they will mud very similar to my old MudBugs. Both thick mud and watery mud. For inexperienced riders I would recommend the bugs instead. They clean out better than the witches and aren't nearly as dependant on throddle control.


my fact.... Your right here the mudbugs do out perform the swamp fox & mst's in mud do to the tread pattern. The bugs clean out better in mud at all speeds and condition that i have found. Also dont you mean the experenced rider should use swamp switch and mst's do to the fact you need to use alot of throttle control as the bugs theres no thinking just hit it at what ever speed you want?

2)
quote:

They are superior to the MudBug's in Muskeg. This may be due to the wider tires up front, but they don't don't dig nearly as quickly and you can go through a lot of holes slower than you can with the bugs.


my fact.... well i did alot of riding with mine in the muskeg aswell and with the skinnys they also did pretty good, but as far as the bugs go i dont understand how you say you were diging down with them cause the bugs have a better floatation then swamp witch or mst's all day long.

3)
quote:

They are equal to the bugs in creeks.


my facts..... i found out they both work pretty good but id have to lean towards the bugs here cause i found with the swap witch and mst's they have a harder tire thicker more solid lugs and tend to slip a bit as the bugs grabed. Not much but i felt the diffrence in fast current as the bugs pulled me up the creek & the swamp witch & mst's i had to go sideways to get across or id just spin in one spot.

4)
quote:

They ride worse than the bugs. This once again may be due to the 12's up front or maybe even the lower air pressure, but I find they don't smooth out as well as the bugs do over 8mph. They really vibrate at around 60k's.


my facts.... yes your correct i have the skinny up front and still the mudbugs did ride better

5)
quote:

They back out of holes better than the bugs did. I would put their backing abilities on par with a Mudlite.


my fact.... yes they back up good but so do the bugs, this one is a toss up. as far as the comment goes there par with the mudlight makes the tire look bad cause the mudlights are junk imo

6)
quote:

They are better in sand than the bugs.


my fact.......this is where it blows my mind, there is no way in hel this sawp switch or the mst's beat the bugs in sand no way. The bugs are a better floatation tire and softer so the bite is alot better then the other 2. I had big time problems going on sand with those tires. Going up lose dirt hills the bugs almost outperformed the swamp switch & mst's in 2 wheel drive as the others in 4 wheel. Sand habds down mud bugs. id say thats imo but really its a FACT.

7)
quote:

They climb out of a mud hole better than the bugs did. Not to sound like a broken record but once again the 12's up front I think are to credit for this. The skinny bugs couldn't climb a wet log or rock or the side of a mud put for the life of them. The Witch's side lug doesn't look like much but I have been very impressed with their climbing abilities out of the mud put or over a log that you can't hit square on.


my fact.... well i cant say much as you have the 12 up front but my skinnys i have on do not i reapeat not climb over anything better than the bugs did. The reason why you say it climbs better out of a hole is imo is do to the extra ground clearence you have over the bugs and yes 12" up front would help out big time.

8)
quote:

These tires are much more sensitive to air pressure than the bugs were. I could run 3.5 to 5 in the bugs and they really didn't seem to change too much, but for these a half a pound makes them a different tire altogether.



my fact.... hes correct they do make a huge diffrence but the bugs i could go as low as 1lb and you could see theres only one pound and still never pop the bead, you go 1 lb on the swamp witch or mst's and it would look like it had 5-8 thats do to the harder compound they use. thats why climbing over opsticals the bugs wins hands down as it molds over everything as the other two dont.

9)
quote:

no comment on snow because it isn't deep enough to do a test.


my fact.... well i have no commont on mst's or swampwitch but i do have one in bugs. The mudbugs to me are the best snow tire anyone can buy. LIke i said they have a very good floatation and alot of traction to get you going and not to much to just make you dig and get high centered. We ride alot of snow here in birtish columbia and we follow the sleds up to the cabin where its over 20 feet deep. the trick to it is to put and use body movment to get you going if you see your tires spin hit the breaks and back up to pack what you just went over and keep repeating this. Now if it freezes over thats a hole diffrent game just hammer on it and hold on cause it going to be one bumpy ride

10)
quote:

The 12's up front really don't make a whole lot of difference on the steering. This may be a set up I stick with. I notice more and more people running 12's all around. They definately ride worse at higher speeds but for me that isn't much more than maybe 5% of the time so I really don't care.


my fact.... hes correct i found that the mst's steerd best up front and i also just put the 12" up front and still steers really good, to me they do steer better than the bugs and swamp switch.

im not going to give you a overall what tire is better thats for you to deside i gave you my facts what you do with it is upo to you

good luck


heres a video of brand new 28" mst's vs second video used run down 26" mudbugs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJO1Fw8LpPQ


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87V_Sr72U_Q

< Message edited by lips450 -- 11/6/2008 11:25:16 AM >


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2008 outy 800xt
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(in reply to jd2210)
Post #: 8
RE: Swamp Witch Facts - 11/6/2008 1:47:47 PM   
jd2210


Posts: 501
Joined: 6/5/2007
From: NorthWestern Ontario
Status: offline
Well I guess I'll address these one by one.

1)I'm not saying I recommend SW's for experienced riders, I'm saying I recommend the bugs for inexperienced riders. I thought that was clear.

2)The bugs were faster to dig down in muskeg. I have yet to see skinny's of any kind do well in muskeg and there are some days I'm in muskeg 8 hours at a time. Keep in mind that I would still rate the bugs at the top 3 or 4 tires for muskeg but there is no doubt that these are better. Really what I should be saying is that 28x12x12 Swampwitches are better than undersized 27x10's and 12'sx12 Mudbugs. It is also worth pointing out that you guys in BC have a much more Peat based sort of minerally and even sandy type of muskeg in some northern areas (my nerd of a roommate in collage was some sort of wierdo into soil sampling and so on for various agencies). Our muskeg here has a large component of floating bog, beaver runs, swamp willows and has a tremendous amount of changes in depth and thickness. Where I am, the narrowness of the bugs lug makes it sink into the soil easier and tear away the ever so little amount of solid ground that there is. There are times where if the machine spins once, you are dumping water out of your boots once you get to solid ground.

3)I basically agree with what you say. They are awfully close though.

4)We agree

5) I should have clarified. I was talking strickly muskeg and floating bog which I realize now that I didn't clarify. I hate Mudlites for almost anything, but they can REALLY back out of muskeg. The bugs were fine, but no Mudlite.

6)I won't agrue with you since it is a FACT, but here is how I determined it. In my north gravel pit which has a westerly sand wall, when I am relocating the welding rig, I used to have to go around the pit wall with the bugs because when I tried to climb the wall they went maybe 5 feet up and then completely dug me down to where I was stopped. I now can shoot right up the wall. I still need 4wd but I make it without any problems. I'm even going over the old ruts that it left from the bugs. It is from maybe 25 or so trips up the wall so I'm sure you have more experience with it than I do.

7) It's definately not the ground clearance issue for many reasons, but I do admit the 12's could for sure be the reason. As for the fallen logs I think the bugs inability to climb them was my biggest beef with them. If the tree was at any kind of an angle from the narrow trail the tires would just ride along the side of the tree instead of going over it. My theory is that if I had the 12's on the front that the bugs excellent side lug would have grabbed the bark and pulled me over, but the 10's were absolutely brutal. When we go from one of our blocks to another we have a rock that we need to climb over. I'm going to say it's approximately 1/4 mile long and 200 ish feet high. There are 2 places where it is difficult to get enought traction and still not have the machiine tip over. With the bugs they would sometime slide down the one section and I would have regroup and go at it again. On occasion it would need two maybe 3 tries. Now I can just worry about my leaning and the tires grab without slipping off the ridge.

8)I ran my bugs with 0 pounds of air and I couldn't climb over 10" poplars that were on any kind of angle (with my fronts).

9)I can hardly wait to see what these babies can do in the snow. You are correct that the bugs are a VERY good tire for snow, but I don't know how you can say in one sentence that you have no comment on the MST or Swampwitch and then in the next say that the bugs are best snow tire that anyone can buy. Isn't that like saying that you have never tried chocolate ice cream but you know for absolute fact that it can't possibly be better than vanilla?

_____________________________

2007 Brute Force 650i
SS112 Rims with 4 28x12x12 Swamp Witches
High Lifter Outlaw Super Duty Extreme Clutch Maroon Primary Yellow Secondary
MIMB Snorkel
2500 lb Warn


1985 Honda Big Red 250
Beat

My Pictures and Videos

(in reply to lips450)
Post #: 9
RE: Swamp Witch Facts - 11/6/2008 3:35:42 PM   
lips450


Posts: 1149
Joined: 2/15/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jd2210

Well I guess I'll address these one by one.

1)I'm not saying I recommend SW's for experienced riders, I'm saying I recommend the bugs for inexperienced riders. I thought that was clear.

2)The bugs were faster to dig down in muskeg. I have yet to see skinny's of any kind do well in muskeg and there are some days I'm in muskeg 8 hours at a time. Keep in mind that I would still rate the bugs at the top 3 or 4 tires for muskeg but there is no doubt that these are better. Really what I should be saying is that 28x12x12 Swampwitches are better than undersized 27x10's and 12'sx12 Mudbugs. It is also worth pointing out that you guys in BC have a much more Peat based sort of minerally and even sandy type of muskeg in some northern areas (my nerd of a roommate in collage was some sort of wierdo into soil sampling and so on for various agencies). Our muskeg here has a large component of floating bog, beaver runs, swamp willows and has a tremendous amount of changes in depth and thickness. Where I am, the narrowness of the bugs lug makes it sink into the soil easier and tear away the ever so little amount of solid ground that there is. There are times where if the machine spins once, you are dumping water out of your boots once you get to solid ground.

3)I basically agree with what you say. They are awfully close though.

4)We agree

5) I should have clarified. I was talking strickly muskeg and floating bog which I realize now that I didn't clarify. I hate Mudlites for almost anything, but they can REALLY back out of muskeg. The bugs were fine, but no Mudlite.

6)I won't agrue with you since it is a FACT, but here is how I determined it. In my north gravel pit which has a westerly sand wall, when I am relocating the welding rig, I used to have to go around the pit wall with the bugs because when I tried to climb the wall they went maybe 5 feet up and then completely dug me down to where I was stopped. I now can shoot right up the wall. I still need 4wd but I make it without any problems. I'm even going over the old ruts that it left from the bugs. It is from maybe 25 or so trips up the wall so I'm sure you have more experience with it than I do.

7) It's definately not the ground clearance issue for many reasons, but I do admit the 12's could for sure be the reason. As for the fallen logs I think the bugs inability to climb them was my biggest beef with them. If the tree was at any kind of an angle from the narrow trail the tires would just ride along the side of the tree instead of going over it. My theory is that if I had the 12's on the front that the bugs excellent side lug would have grabbed the bark and pulled me over, but the 10's were absolutely brutal. When we go from one of our blocks to another we have a rock that we need to climb over. I'm going to say it's approximately 1/4 mile long and 200 ish feet high. There are 2 places where it is difficult to get enought traction and still not have the machiine tip over. With the bugs they would sometime slide down the one section and I would have regroup and go at it again. On occasion it would need two maybe 3 tries. Now I can just worry about my leaning and the tires grab without slipping off the ridge.

8)I ran my bugs with 0 pounds of air and I couldn't climb over 10" poplars that were on any kind of angle (with my fronts).

9)I can hardly wait to see what these babies can do in the snow. You are correct that the bugs are a VERY good tire for snow, but I don't know how you can say in one sentence that you have no comment on the MST or Swampwitch and then in the next say that the bugs are best snow tire that anyone can buy. Isn't that like saying that you have never tried chocolate ice cream but you know for absolute fact that it can't possibly be better than vanilla?


well in response to the snow comment, like i said ive never tried it in snow but do to the fact that i know the mst's are 11" wide and the bugs are 12" the bugs have more of a contact patch in the snow and at low preasure i could run the bugs lower causing them to flare out more than the other two tires do. Low preasure is the best thing you could do to ride in snow conditions, sure you lose g/c but in this stuff traction comes first, then g/c would be nice. im no tech guy but i really cant see a hard compound tire with no ability to flex outpeform a softer tire in snow, but thats just me

as far as the rest of your comments im not going to respond do to the fact that it probably true for you. its just down here the bugs work better for me then swamp switch.

_____________________________

2008 outy 800xt
snorkel, uni air filter, dalton clutch kit, hmf exhaust, 1 3/4" front face lift, itp ss 212 rims, 28" outlaws
soon to get:
dynojet power commander, skid plates
l

(in reply to jd2210)
Post #: 10
RE: Swamp Witch Facts - 11/6/2008 3:54:07 PM   
jd2210


Posts: 501
Joined: 6/5/2007
From: NorthWestern Ontario
Status: offline
I'm certainly not impressed at how narrow my Witches are and I'm sure that will play a part in their abilities in deep snow. We'll see I guess, I certainly don't want to judge until I get a chance to properly compare the two.

And you're right. What is true for me may not be true for you. I went out riding to southern Manitoba this Sept and was surprised at how completely different their mud was. Around here a Mudzilla really isn't much of a step up from the bugs in most mud, but boy out there I couldn't believe the difference between the two.

_____________________________

2007 Brute Force 650i
SS112 Rims with 4 28x12x12 Swamp Witches
High Lifter Outlaw Super Duty Extreme Clutch Maroon Primary Yellow Secondary
MIMB Snorkel
2500 lb Warn


1985 Honda Big Red 250
Beat

My Pictures and Videos

(in reply to lips450)
Post #: 11
RE: Swamp Witch Facts - 11/7/2008 1:01:43 AM   
Kesa

 

Posts: 144
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I Love my Witches and I'm in NW On also!

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(in reply to jd2210)
Post #: 12
RE: Swamp Witch Facts - 11/7/2008 10:46:55 AM   
TRLWGN1


Posts: 159
Joined: 1/2/2007
From: Central IL
Status: offline
Just a thought, as I have not owned bugs, but my friend/neighbor did, but I do believe that the 26" bugs have fewer lugs with more spacing than the 27" and larger.  I know lips has the 26" and it appears that jd had the 27's.

This FACT could account for the difference of opinion when comparing the tires.

my opinion, riding side by side with my neighbor, there was only one time that he made it up a muddy clay bank that I couldn't climb and that could have been rider/machine difference.  Didn't notice much difference anywhere else except that my MST's are smooth from 1 mph on up and his bugs didn't smooth out until 8 mph and up.

now, playing around in damp sand in 2wd, I was able to make it up the sandy banks easier than him, but this again could have been a rider/machine difference (his machine was a low Foreman 400 and mine is a lifted Eiger 400.  Mine has better clearance but his has a lower center of gravity)

Both tires work very well IMHO.

Now he has some new Swamp Lites on his new to him Brute, so we will see how these compare to the MST's tomorrow.  I am going to bet that they climb better, but won't push through sandy creeks as well. 

< Message edited by TRLWGN1 -- 11/7/2008 10:49:43 AM >


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Post #: 13
RE: Swamp Witch Facts - 11/7/2008 1:30:44 PM   
jd2210


Posts: 501
Joined: 6/5/2007
From: NorthWestern Ontario
Status: offline
I think that the reason the word FACT keeps creeping up in the conversation is because that is what I titled the original post. What people need to remember is that in that original post I only posted FACTS like the dimensions and weights of the tires, and kept the opinions of ride qual etc out of it. Since then, the thread has morphed into opinions but we are still using the term FACT when in actuality they are somewhat skewed opinions. What I should have titled it is "The very first post in this thread will be facts and the rest of the posts may not be facts" That may have been a bit long though

_____________________________

2007 Brute Force 650i
SS112 Rims with 4 28x12x12 Swamp Witches
High Lifter Outlaw Super Duty Extreme Clutch Maroon Primary Yellow Secondary
MIMB Snorkel
2500 lb Warn


1985 Honda Big Red 250
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(in reply to TRLWGN1)
Post #: 14
RE: Swamp Witch Facts - 11/7/2008 2:11:50 PM   
r_sikes


Posts: 642
Joined: 5/17/2008
From: old town ,fl
Status: offline
holy crap you guess like to type!


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and in the middle of building the motor one more time!

(in reply to jd2210)
Post #: 15
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