Kaw. re-clutching 101
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Kaw. re-clutching 101

 
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Kaw. re-clutching 101 - 4/19/2007 9:03:28 AM   
BUSHHOG

 

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ATV BELT SLIPPAGE WITH BIG TIRES :

Belt To sheave force in the driven clutch is calibrated for "stock" tires. If this calibration is too stiff it will not shift out for top speed requirements. If it is to soft it will slip and then the drive clutch will over shift. Driven springs have three specifications. (varies by brand ) 1. 2.5 inches in load lbs. 2. 1.25 inches in load lbs. 3. Shift rate lbs.

If a spring has a heavy, heavy load point, but soft shift rate, the result is heat which will effect rate into the ride, ie: loose back shift.

When you re-calibrate the driven clutch, it will effect the calibration of the drive clutch. The rate at which the drive clutch shifts up is mainly determined by drive clutch calibration; but is also effected by the driven calibration. The drive clutch calibration effects are as follows: 1. stall (engagement) 2. top RPM 3. throttle responce of engine. 4. belt squeeze.

If a driven clutch requires a stiffer spring for belt squeeze, it makes it harder for the drive clutch to open the driven clutch to higher ratio's. The drive and driven clutches MUST work together for proper performance.

WHY CHANGE THE WEIGHTS :

1. Larger tire diameter lowers engine RPM
2. Kawasaki has a style of weight commonly called "heavy tip." A characteristic of a heavy tip is belt slippage at engagement and slower backshift in the mid-range and top end.
3. A heaver weight style moves more weight for better engagement and mid-range. This style is called a "light tip". It causes less belt slippage at engagement and better backshift due to proper weight placement.

To sum up, it takes new custom springs for both clutches along with new weights to have proper squeeze and grip allowing you to turn big tires in deep mud.



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RE: Kaw. re-clutching 101 - 4/19/2007 9:06:42 AM   
robert7192


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So what is the best setup for a brute with 29.5s? springs?weights?

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RE: Kaw. re-clutching 101 - 4/19/2007 9:09:54 AM   
BUSHHOG

 

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Our extreme duty kit. Part # HLCKK750BF-SX @ $ 219.95.

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RE: Kaw. re-clutching 101 - 4/19/2007 9:15:06 AM   
robert7192


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My buddy Monsterbrute has that kit and is still having problems smoking his belt in mud.  Do you have any suggestions?

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RE: Kaw. re-clutching 101 - 4/19/2007 9:33:59 AM   
BUSHHOG

 

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Because of the slightly high gearing combined with a ton of torque on the V-Twin, proper belt adjustment is of critical importance. Then ALWAYS be in low range when in 4wd, use the throttle carefully leaving your ego at home and don't drink two six packs of beer which can cause heavy thumb syndrome.......lol.

< Message edited by BUSHHOG -- 4/19/2007 9:35:09 AM >


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RE: Kaw. re-clutching 101 - 4/19/2007 9:37:14 AM   
mudracer80


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I'm going to have to disagree with the heavy tip theory. I added wieght to the tip of my stock wieghts and It has noticably improved the belt grip.
I dont know if this works as well for the brutes with the 4.3 gears but on my Cat V2 with 4.0 gears it is the best setup I have tried.

I can now ride with mine in high gear without worrieng about the belt sliping, but I still put in low for the mud. I have done alot of deep mud riding since I've put the wieghts in and I havent sliped the belt once, not even in reverse wich was still a big problem with just the springs. I havent been in any situation were it has boged the motor down and I have finaly shut my buddies up on how there bike is better than mine becuase "my belt slips"

It has also increased acceleration quite a bit ( It is a drag racing mod )
I can pull a wheelie in low gear, leaning over the handle bars!

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RE: Kaw. re-clutching 101 - 4/19/2007 9:42:50 AM   
BUSHHOG

 

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Hey Mary, what did I tell you was going to happen. I nailed it right on the money didn't I.

BTW, I'm out of this post. Bye !!! I hope some of you will benefit from this post. I assure you it's correct/best for a Brute Force with monster tires and deep mud.

BUSHHOG

< Message edited by BUSHHOG -- 4/19/2007 9:58:57 AM >


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RE: Kaw. re-clutching 101 - 4/19/2007 10:11:47 AM   
KSims1868

 

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If the HL extreme duty clutch kit is all it takes to avoid belt burning, slippage on Brutes with 29.5" Outlaws...WHY do people have all these questions and problems getting it setup right?

I'm NOT asking to be a jerk...I am about to buy a BF 750, and I don't know if I want to get Outlaws or not.  If someone can tell me EXACTLY what I need to have done to the clutch/belt...then I want the 29.5" Outlaws.  If all people can do is guess...I'm not going to deal with it.

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RE: Kaw. re-clutching 101 - 4/19/2007 10:22:54 AM   
mudracer80


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Sorry, I wasnt tring to take anything away from your post.

Just posting what I had delt with and my setup, in case there are some people that can benefit from it. It was a mod I learnd about through Mary from Kiss of Death and it has worked well. The intire wieght setup cost me 8 bucks and has been well worth it. I just figured it was worth mentioning.

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RE: Kaw. re-clutching 101 - 4/19/2007 10:24:07 AM   
robert7192


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Outlaws are worth figuring out your clutch problems if you have them.  Some people have problems and some dont.  There is no comparison to outlaws in my opinion.  They pull better than any other tire.  Plus they are coming out with 31s how can you go wrong.

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RE: Kaw. re-clutching 101 - 4/19/2007 11:04:28 AM   
BUSHHOG

 

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I said I was out and meant it, however, it's hard not to try to help you. First let me say NOTHING stops belt slippage on the Brute completely everytime. Way, way to many varibles, ie: heavy thumbs, high range mud use, worn belts, belts out of proper alignment/deflection, poor driver skills, high gearing on the Brute combined with a bunch of low end torque, etc. That's just the way it is on the V-2 Kawi's and Cats. What you must do is have the belt installed correctly along with our kit designed for extreme duty use and make sure you operate the ATV with a little common since. With any "monster" tires, not just 29.5's, this is is the best set up we know about. Guys I've said all I know to say. Re-read my post, because it provides the answers we have for a correct custom clutch set-up. As a last reminder, the belt MUST be installed dead on the money and kept fresh for the clutch kit to have a chance to stop or lower occurance of belt slippage. Then the rest is left up to how you operate your unit.

< Message edited by BUSHHOG -- 4/20/2007 11:02:52 AM >


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RE: Kaw. re-clutching 101 - 4/19/2007 11:14:38 AM   
shife


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Good writeup bushhog!  Im sure it will help alot of folks out with their clutching questions.

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RE: Kaw. re-clutching 101 - 4/19/2007 12:36:40 PM   
ZR2_roost


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Nice Dan!  I might have to try out the weights one day, as I am currently only running different springs with the stock weights.

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RE: Kaw. re-clutching 101 - 4/19/2007 1:53:46 PM   
KSims1868

 

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Thanks BUSHHOG - at least I know there is a kit that is specifically designed for the 29.5" Outlaws.  If I need it...I'll know who to call!!!

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RE: Kaw. re-clutching 101 - 4/19/2007 2:45:08 PM   
mudcrazee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BUSHHOG

I said I was out and meant it, however, it's hard not to try to help you. First let me say NOTHING stops belt slippage on the Brute completely everytime. Way, way to many varibles, ie: heavy thumbs, high range mud use, worn belts, belts out of proper alignment/deflection, poor driver skills, high gearing on the Brute combined with a bunch of low end torque, etc. That's just the way it is on the V-2 Kawi's and Cats. What you must do is have the belt installed correctly along with our kit designed for extreme duty use and make sure you operate the ATV with a little common since. With any "monster" tires, not just 29.5's, this is is the best set up we know about. Guys I've said all I know to say. Re-read my post, because it provides the answers we have for a correct custom clutch set-up. As a last reminder, the belt MUST be installed dead on the money and kept fresh for the clutch kit to have a change to stop or lower occurance of belt slippage. Then the rest is left up to how you operate your unit.

Thank YOU!!!!!!! I have been saying this for 2 years. We get new people all the time on here and sometimes we get post jet lag. If Trapper, Polaris425 or Scribner would add this to the clutch post "how to tighten the belt" and people will read it and truely beleive that we are not BS'ing them, then they will have some awesome riding BF's out there. Anyone can add springs and weights, but if the belt is not in deflection or is in bad shape and the sheaves or in bad shape from burning previous belts, the BF, Prarie etc is still gonna run like crap. I let my service dept. install my first clutch kit and thought I would have the best clutch kit because it was HL's and professionals installed it. Boy was I wrong. The clutch kit was awesome, just the individual installing it had no clue what he was doing. I sat down with the service manual and picked KOD's brain and a few others on here and learned "ON Here" how to properly install a clutch, clean the sheaves and check deflection. I have had 0 problems since.

What you guys/gals need to understand about what Bushhog is telling you is that they did all the trial and error testing. They ran the test with different springs and weights. What they have to offer is the best setup for 29.5's and less. What we "members" on the forum have to offer is experience with different setups in different types of situations we have experienced ourselves. We have tried there products over the years and when the 29.5's came out, they realized they needed something better in the clutch dept. They went back and tested somemore and came out with the Extreme clutch kit. It works for 29.5's. I can tell you from first hand experience.  Alot of the information people seek out everyday is already on here if you just look in the obvious places or do a search. Have a good BF day.

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RE: Kaw. re-clutching 101 - 4/20/2007 10:59:04 AM   
BUSHHOG

 

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For additional knowledge on "How to tighten the belt", see Mudcrazee's thread at the top of the High Lifter Kawi Forum found under the "sticky notes". It is excellent !!!!

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RE: Kaw. re-clutching 101 - 4/20/2007 12:03:39 PM   
BruteWise


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I HAVE TO COMPLETELY AGREE WITH BUSHHOG.  I HAVE HAD THE EXTREME DUTY KIT ON MY BRUTE SINCE THE DAY I HAVE OWNED IT AND NEVER TO THIS DAY HAD ANY PROBLEMS WITH IT AND THE 29.5'S WERE MOUNTED THE SAME DAY I BOUGHT IT.  I JUST RECENTLY CHANGED MY ORIGINAL STOCK BELT CUZ I SMOKED IT IN REVERSE(OPERATOR ERROR).  BUT MY ORIGINAL STOCK OEM BELT LASTED MANY MANY MILES OF HARD CORE MUD RIDING.  THE ONLY DISADVANTAGE I HAVE SEEN PEOPLE SAYING THEY HAVE WITH THIS KIT IS THE STALL, BUT I GUESS THAT IS JUST PART OF HAVING BELT GRIP.  THANKS HIGHLIFTER FOR DESIGNING A KIT TO SUPPORT THESE HUGE MONSTER MUDDERS YA'LL KEEP MAKING!!

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RE: Kaw. re-clutching 101 - 4/20/2007 12:47:54 PM   
KSims1868

 

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That is one question I have...the stall.

I've seen a guy with an extreme duty clutch kit installed on his Grizzly.  It seemed that when he gave it gas the RPMs would go up and then the clutch would engage.  Then it sort of jerked into gear (for lack of a better word) and I didn't like how it did that. 

Is there a "stall" effect when you install a clutch kit?

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RE: Kaw. re-clutching 101 - 4/20/2007 12:58:22 PM   
mudracer80


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Yes, But the pink primary spring isnt very bad at all. It just a little more stall than stock.

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RE: Kaw. re-clutching 101 - 4/20/2007 1:21:23 PM   
GreenSubmarine


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Just take it easy till you get a good feel for the stall.  When I first put mine on, I did abunch of other mods at the same time (Moose module, Twist Throttle, lift, 29.5's and just about everything else I had stacked up in the corner waiting for the Warranty to expire) 

Went to load it up, and finness it up to the edge of the trailer ... gave it a bit too much gas and climbed over the trailer rail.  It wasn't too bad out on the muddy trails at Mud Nats... but I was nervous trying to climb up on those bridges from 2 years ago. 

The only problems I have had with belt slippage was when I put it in reverse to try and back out of a hole I was in that the tires were having trouble turning in low.  Burned belt (Stock belt).  Then when I got some water in the belt and slipped it (That one I hadn't shimmed in propperly <Dayco>) 

Now with a propperly shimmed Kawasaki brand belt (And the addition of a tuned Primary)  I have noticed a slight drop in stall, and also awseome performance out on the trails.

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RE: Kaw. re-clutching 101 - 4/20/2007 1:33:30 PM   
Scribner


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quote:

If Trapper, Polaris425 or Scribner would add this to the clutch post


Done

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RE: Kaw. re-clutching 101 - 4/20/2007 2:22:11 PM   
Mudcon


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well I disagree with bushhog...........................................













dont know why I just want to get him going on a friday afternoon.......................

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RE: Kaw. re-clutching 101 - 4/20/2007 2:23:38 PM   
flynt


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All I'm gonna say is I totally disagee with this post. Most of you know where I stand on this topic...

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RE: Kaw. re-clutching 101 - 4/20/2007 3:38:40 PM   
BUSHHOG

 

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...........you have the right to agree or disagree flynt, but I would think one of the worlds best re-clutching engineer's, Glenn at EPI, along with his very experienced R&D people, plus the R&D test staff at High Lifter, might, just might, be correct. Glenn for the record is a multi-time open class world champion snowmobile snow/grass drag racer who always re-clutched his own snowmobiles. The principals he learned over many years on snowmobiles are the same re-clutching principals for ATV's. He is also a highly paid consultant on a regular basis to various OEM's to help improve certain specialized ATV/UTV clutching applications. We've only sold several 1000 of these kits in the last few years. We also have four 750 Brutes that we ride here at High Lifter that turn 29.5's all the time. I believe we have it figured out. BTW, I have a ton of respect for your motor mods and other mechanical skills, but since I know what you believe to be true concerning clutching, I think ours is a better over-all mouse trap. That certainly does not make your ideas wrong. No doubt, they are far better than a stock set-up. We just have a difference of opinion which is not a bad thing.

OK Mudcon, you better head for Windrock or someplace else where my main heavy work dude, Roscoe, can't find you........lol. If he does find you and knocks on your door and all you see is a big hairy chest on eye level, duck and run........lol again !!!!!  Naw, I'm just kidding. Hope you have a great weekend.


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RE: Kaw. re-clutching 101 - 4/20/2007 4:41:26 PM   
superbogger750


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Well thats a good write up Dan,and i also have had this clutch kit for 1000 miles and never slipped a bely.You have to learn throttle control and when to say when.Great info,keep up the good work Highlifter.

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RE: Kaw. re-clutching 101 - 4/20/2007 5:37:41 PM   
GoatManx

 

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Hmmm weight profile.

If your weight profile is putting more clamping force at a lower rpm then why does it have to stall up more before it starts to to force the clutch sheaves together compared to the stock weights.

Stall also on a grab and go setup like the kawie's and polaris's does hurt belt grip and your kit includes higher stall primary springs which are unnecessary.

Also might want to do a little research on the brutes gearing... its far from high.

Top speed is lost as the red and yellow secondary springs are so long they coil bind so the secondary can't open up any further. It doesn't matter what you do to the primary you'll never get more top speed out of the red and yellow secondary.




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RE: Kaw. re-clutching 101 - 4/20/2007 6:13:00 PM   
SSTOGI


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GoatManx



Top speed is lost as the red and yellow secondary springs are so long they coil bind so the secondary can't open up any further. It doesn't matter what you do to the primary you'll never get more top speed out of the red and yellow secondary.









This is where we have to comprimise on what we want our bikes to do...Do we want them to pull like a tractor thru the mud  or do we want it to stretch out like a vette and water our eyeballs.   The loss of top end isn't a concern to most of us running 29.5s....But I would like the acceleration back . I guess this is where playing around with the wieghts work. I'm  running 2-56/2-54( the effect of haveing 55 gram weights) I'm going to try the stock ones and see what happens. This may be a happy medium.

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RE: Kaw. re-clutching 101 - 4/20/2007 7:54:01 PM   
flynt


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Thanks Goatmanx, these are my thoughts exactly, just couldn't put it into words. Dan, I mean no dissrespect at all. I just feel differently about this. I have alot of customers that are tired of buying belts and want me to do something about it. Well, I have installed the most aggressive set up that ya'll offer and still smoking belt. So I had to look at it farther and came up with my own set up and so far... We've been successful. It's not for everyone but works. Not selling any more belts.

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RE: Kaw. re-clutching 101 - 4/20/2007 8:53:13 PM   
mudracer80


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Hey Flynt, If you dont mind could you post or PM me your setup, I just want to compare what I've been doing to what you've came up with?

SSTOGI, If you want the acceleration back, Go with the heavier wieghts like you are talking about.(you wont be dissappointed) AS I said in my post above, I'm running heavier than stock wieghts and it works great!! And I dont claim to be any kind of expert on anything but they sure seem to hold the belt better to me.
As long as you dont make them to heavy you will not bog in the thick stuff.

_____________________________


06 Arctic Cat 665 V-TWIN 11.5:1 CWR450 cams
Swx full exhaust, dynatek
2" lift, ape'ed, lawed
jeted and clutched


Wifes Bike
07 Grizzly 660, 5.5" Ape lift,
clutch kit, custom snorkel,
30" Mudzillas, Rad Relocated


Hard Pack Arctic Cats
It all seems HardPack when you ride a CAT

STEEL HORSES

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RE: Kaw. re-clutching 101 - 4/20/2007 9:55:28 PM   
sawhead