Grizz 700 needs bottom end help
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Grizz 700 needs bottom end help

 
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Grizz 700 needs bottom end help - 9/21/2008 10:56:01 AM   
wadesie


Posts: 57
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline
All right guys, I need some bottom end for the grizz, what I mean is if I am in a mud hole and go to gas it the tires wont spin if they are in deep it just kinda bogs down. now it will move, it just wont break the tires loose. Is this normal or can this be helped? I have changed 1/2 clutch weights to 450 weights and that helped a little just not much. I really dont want a loud pipe, I would like to get something that would help but doesnt require alot of adjustment. should I look at an actual clutch kit or what? Thanks

_____________________________

07 Grizzly 700FI
27 Mudlites on 14's
Xtreme 3500lb Winch (piece of crap)
Power Madd Protectors
2R Power Tip
Leed 2" Reciever
Custom Snorks
Clutch Mods
Red & White Leds
Blue Whelens TIR3 (FOR SALE!!!)
Post #: 1
RE: Grizz 700 needs bottom end help - 9/21/2008 11:40:00 AM   
rancherryder


Posts: 379
Joined: 12/17/2006
From: Lafayette, Alabama
Status: offline
If it won't spin 27" Mudlites, then you have a problem somewhere.  It should have no problem turning those tires in anything.  Are you using low range? 

_____________________________

2008 Yamaha Grizzly 700
31" Outlaws, 14" SS112, 1.5" Spacers, XPATV Lift, HL Springs, Warn 2500, HMF Utility/Optimizer, Dyna CDI, HL Clutch Kit, Snorkels, Audiopipe

(in reply to wadesie)
Post #: 2
RE: Grizz 700 needs bottom end help - 9/21/2008 1:30:02 PM   
wadesie


Posts: 57
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline
sometimes low but mostly high, we are primarily riding in good old IL Clay and there isnt a hole lot of digging in, its just bitting enough and that is why I question how come it wont break the tires loose. Possibly I screwed up the clutch weights but we checked it 3 times and we have them every other one. We also do winter riding in the snow and there are times when buried it wont even break loose in a snow bank.

_____________________________

07 Grizzly 700FI
27 Mudlites on 14's
Xtreme 3500lb Winch (piece of crap)
Power Madd Protectors
2R Power Tip
Leed 2" Reciever
Custom Snorks
Clutch Mods
Red & White Leds
Blue Whelens TIR3 (FOR SALE!!!)

(in reply to rancherryder)
Post #: 3
RE: Grizz 700 needs bottom end help - 9/21/2008 2:35:31 PM   
05mudiak


Posts: 943
Joined: 8/27/2006
From: Haughton, LA
Status: offline
Well if you in nasty clay you need to be in low! and you probably need a clutch kit I put the extreme in mine totally new bike after that and if it is not spinning tire in snow you probably already smoked your belt. Anytime no matter what your in if you notice the bike bogging down you need to be in low or your just gonna burn up your blet. But I would go with the clutch kit best single upgrade IMO!

_____________________________

2008 girzzly 700
HMF Penland Pro
Dobeck TFI box
Twin Air filter
HL outlaw extreme clutch
2" HL lift kit With HL overload springs
30" mud lites
14" ITP wheels
Fully snorked and relocated radiator
dynateck ignition box & coil

2005 kodiak 450
HMF Eco-system
Twin Air filter
2" high lifter lift kit
bayou snorkel kit
27" mud lites w/itp's

2005 Banshee with mods
1985 Honda odyssey 350r

http://s97.photobucket.com/albums/l238/

(in reply to wadesie)
Post #: 4
RE: Grizz 700 needs bottom end help - 9/21/2008 6:14:29 PM   
wadesie


Posts: 57
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline
what is included with that clutch kit????? I think might be what I need

_____________________________

07 Grizzly 700FI
27 Mudlites on 14's
Xtreme 3500lb Winch (piece of crap)
Power Madd Protectors
2R Power Tip
Leed 2" Reciever
Custom Snorks
Clutch Mods
Red & White Leds
Blue Whelens TIR3 (FOR SALE!!!)

(in reply to 05mudiak)
Post #: 5
RE: Grizz 700 needs bottom end help - 9/21/2008 8:04:04 PM   
sparky660


Posts: 1149
Joined: 12/9/2004
From: Alberta, Canada eh!
Status: offline
Not using low gear is your biggest mistake. Even with the big 800+ machines low gear has to be used for mudding if you want the machine to last and get he best performance.

_____________________________

2007 Grizzly 700 Camo
26" ITP 589's
ITP Type 6 rims
Full Aluminum Yamaha Skidplates
engine is stock for now


Sold the 04 that was slightly modded

(in reply to wadesie)
Post #: 6
RE: Grizz 700 needs bottom end help - 9/21/2008 8:35:04 PM   
grizzlyneckdeep


Posts: 65
Joined: 7/13/2008
Status: offline
mine was doing somewhat the same after i did the snorkel job. i see u did that and you have a tip. you are running to lean. What i did for mine was got one of those podmod kits. this helped me out more than anything. At first on mine i could not spin the tires much in the mud. Now i can do a burn out on the street. It only cost about 25$ and easy to do.

_____________________________

Red 08 Grizz 700
27" mudlites on stocks
duel intake Snorkels
Podmod
Stock exhaust mod
Viper Winch (burned up)
Cluch weight changout (TAKEN OFF)
20lbs of mud from last ride

(in reply to sparky660)
Post #: 7
RE: Grizz 700 needs bottom end help - 9/21/2008 11:12:44 PM   
05mudiak


Posts: 943
Joined: 8/27/2006
From: Haughton, LA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: wadesie

what is included with that clutch kit????? I think might be what I need


new primary springs for what rpm the belt engauges it increases the rpm acts like the stall in a automatic trans in a car, new weights, and a stronger secondary spring it puts more pressure on the belt keep it from slipping.

but as stated in one of the post you might be running lean too if you don't have some kind of controller on it.

_____________________________

2008 girzzly 700
HMF Penland Pro
Dobeck TFI box
Twin Air filter
HL outlaw extreme clutch
2" HL lift kit With HL overload springs
30" mud lites
14" ITP wheels
Fully snorked and relocated radiator
dynateck ignition box & coil

2005 kodiak 450
HMF Eco-system
Twin Air filter
2" high lifter lift kit
bayou snorkel kit
27" mud lites w/itp's

2005 Banshee with mods
1985 Honda odyssey 350r

http://s97.photobucket.com/albums/l238/

(in reply to wadesie)
Post #: 8
RE: Grizz 700 needs bottom end help - 9/22/2008 8:02:30 AM   
wadesie


Posts: 57
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline
I am not familiar with the pod mod kit. I have read about pod mods but I didnt know that there was a kit out there.
quote:

mine was doing somewhat the same after i did the snorkel job. i see u did that and you have a tip. you are running to lean. What i did for mine was got one of those podmod kits. this helped me out more than anything. At first on mine i could not spin the tires much in the mud. Now i can do a burn out on the street. It only cost about 25$ and easy to do.
 Where did you buy that

_____________________________

07 Grizzly 700FI
27 Mudlites on 14's
Xtreme 3500lb Winch (piece of crap)
Power Madd Protectors
2R Power Tip
Leed 2" Reciever
Custom Snorks
Clutch Mods
Red & White Leds
Blue Whelens TIR3 (FOR SALE!!!)

(in reply to 05mudiak)
Post #: 9
RE: Grizz 700 needs bottom end help - 9/22/2008 7:31:27 PM   
grizzlyneckdeep


Posts: 65
Joined: 7/13/2008
Status: offline
Go to ebay and type in (pod mod) it will come up. it has instructions on there. Also in the mean time, google it, and there is a lot of info out there on how to do it for free. Good luck, and keep this post alive until you get it fixed.

_____________________________

Red 08 Grizz 700
27" mudlites on stocks
duel intake Snorkels
Podmod
Stock exhaust mod
Viper Winch (burned up)
Cluch weight changout (TAKEN OFF)
20lbs of mud from last ride

(in reply to wadesie)
Post #: 10
RE: Grizz 700 needs bottom end help - 9/22/2008 8:57:24 PM   
gotta grizz


Posts: 142
Joined: 2/22/2008
From: Texas
Status: offline
grizzlyneckdeep,

your not talking about the pod mod that people were haveing trouble with smoking ther pod and ruining the harness are u ? cuz new pods for 700 are not cheap

_____________________________

08' 700FI green GRIZZ (Eats mud and sand and sh**s Bricks)
3000lb SuperWinch (for now)
27x14 XTR's onSS112's

(in reply to grizzlyneckdeep)
Post #: 11
RE: Grizz 700 needs bottom end help - 9/23/2008 8:40:35 AM   
wadesie


Posts: 57
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline
what about an optimizer, will that work even if I dont have a pipe? I just dont want to have to mess with it all the time. I just want to be able to get on the quad and ride it. I had an optimizer & hmf pipe on it at one time I took it off because the pipe was to loud for my taste and I had a hard time getting the optimizer set right. Maybe the optimizer by itself would be less messing around.

Right now I am thinking an optimizer and clutch kit.

_____________________________

07 Grizzly 700FI
27 Mudlites on 14's
Xtreme 3500lb Winch (piece of crap)
Power Madd Protectors
2R Power Tip
Leed 2" Reciever
Custom Snorks
Clutch Mods
Red & White Leds
Blue Whelens TIR3 (FOR SALE!!!)

(in reply to gotta grizz)
Post #: 12
RE: Grizz 700 needs bottom end help - 9/23/2008 1:21:23 PM   
gotta grizz


Posts: 142
Joined: 2/22/2008
From: Texas
Status: offline
ok ordered my pod mod looks simple enough they even shoed a vid of the guy changeing his settings

_____________________________

08' 700FI green GRIZZ (Eats mud and sand and sh**s Bricks)
3000lb SuperWinch (for now)
27x14 XTR's onSS112's

(in reply to wadesie)
Post #: 13
RE: Grizz 700 needs bottom end help - 9/24/2008 8:10:27 PM   
grizzlyneckdeep


Posts: 65
Joined: 7/13/2008
Status: offline
quote:

grizzlyneckdeep,

your not talking about the pod mod that people were haveing trouble with smoking ther pod and ruining the harness are u ? cuz new pods for 700 are not cheap


never heard of any body smoking there pod, but i would like to see somebody roll that up, must of took a lot of zig zags.


I'v never heard of it, but yeah i did cut a wire and grounded it. this allowed me to gain control to c1, which is first 25% of throttle. Hope i dont have to go to my local cracker barrel for some papers.

_____________________________

Red 08 Grizz 700
27" mudlites on stocks
duel intake Snorkels
Podmod
Stock exhaust mod
Viper Winch (burned up)
Cluch weight changout (TAKEN OFF)
20lbs of mud from last ride

(in reply to gotta grizz)
Post #: 14
RE: Grizz 700 needs bottom end help - 9/24/2008 9:30:33 PM   
gotta grizz


Posts: 142
Joined: 2/22/2008
From: Texas
Status: offline
very funny but i was serious some one bought a suposed 25hp gain widgit from e bay aparently it was instaled wrong and caused the harness and pod to fry and the wires smoked they got so hot but another guy was able to gethis grizz up to 80mph suposedly

_____________________________

08' 700FI green GRIZZ (Eats mud and sand and sh**s Bricks)
3000lb SuperWinch (for now)
27x14 XTR's onSS112's

(in reply to grizzlyneckdeep)
Post #: 15
RE: Grizz 700 needs bottom end help - 9/25/2008 8:50:57 AM   
wadesie


Posts: 57
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline
Yeah I know what you are talking about, that little bity peice of crap thing that says 45 hp gain that looks like a $10 furnace roll out switch. it is a tempting little bugger I was thinking about getting 2 of them and putting them in series and getting 90+ hp

_____________________________

07 Grizzly 700FI
27 Mudlites on 14's
Xtreme 3500lb Winch (piece of crap)
Power Madd Protectors
2R Power Tip
Leed 2" Reciever
Custom Snorks
Clutch Mods
Red & White Leds
Blue Whelens TIR3 (FOR SALE!!!)

(in reply to gotta grizz)
Post #: 16
RE: Grizz 700 needs bottom end help - 9/25/2008 12:45:21 PM   
BELLY2878


Posts: 199
Joined: 7/4/2007
From: Brenham, TX
Status: offline
you are crazy if you buythat crap off ebay. here is my #1 advice, stay in low most of the time you are riding unless you are just riding really fast.

_____________________________

DJ KID

mine
700 Grizzly Ducks Unlimited
30 backs/ snorked/ rad relocate
EPI Purple Secondary Spring and Weights
HMF pipe/ optimizer
12 inch slc lift

http://www.myspace.com/belly2878

(in reply to wadesie)
Post #: 17
RE: Grizz 700 needs bottom end help - 9/25/2008 1:02:05 PM   
wadesie


Posts: 57
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

you are crazy if you buythat crap off ebay.


No doubt about that!! that was a joke although I see a post on here that someone was thinking about doing that
that will be thier problem not mine!

thanks

_____________________________

07 Grizzly 700FI
27 Mudlites on 14's
Xtreme 3500lb Winch (piece of crap)
Power Madd Protectors
2R Power Tip
Leed 2" Reciever
Custom Snorks
Clutch Mods
Red & White Leds
Blue Whelens TIR3 (FOR SALE!!!)

(in reply to BELLY2878)
Post #: 18
RE: Grizz 700 needs bottom end help - 9/25/2008 3:01:57 PM   
farmerboy700


Posts: 1308
Joined: 5/12/2008
From: Tha Ga!!!
Status: online
I forgot my grizz had high!!

_____________________________

"Team Do Work!!"

700 Grizz
32'' Silverbacks
03 Gorilla Lifted 660
31''Outlaws
07 Polaris Ranger 700

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewProfile&friendID=58900083

(in reply to wadesie)
Post #: 19
RE: Grizz 700 needs bottom end help - 9/25/2008 5:25:23 PM   
puddlejumper


Posts: 103
Joined: 8/13/2008
Status: offline
i never used low on my kingquad 700 unless it was super sticky clay, witht the vdi pipe clutch it would lite up those 26" tires in high in the mud, were my dads grizz with 26" tires and has a clutch kit has to throw it in low all the time witch is a pain! i sold my kingquad and em buying a grizz, my advice would be the vdi ecu like i had on my kingquad, there awsome! the remove the limiters keep your quad from overheating and give a huge gain on low mid and high end power, at least on the kingquad it did. there gunna be availible on november 1st i believe

_____________________________

ITP 589's for sale sizes- front- 27 10 12 Rear- 27 12 12


sold!
06 kingquad 700-
-itp mudlite xtr
-itp ss rims
-vdi copperhead
-hmf penland pipe
-K&n filter
-handguards
-richochet skids
-daulton clutch kit.

(in reply to farmerboy700)
Post #: 20
RE: Grizz 700 needs bottom end help - 9/26/2008 12:51:20 AM   
sparky660


Posts: 1149
Joined: 12/9/2004
From: Alberta, Canada eh!
Status: offline
There is a reason why you have low gear. For the best performance out of your machine and to remove undo stress on the engine and clutch. Just ask how many guys at mud nats used High gear. I made the mistake of doing it with my 04 686 and wore a grove in the primary pulley. You would be a dumb a$$ to use anything but low gear in any kind of mud and slow speed riding.

_____________________________

2007 Grizzly 700 Camo
26" ITP 589's
ITP Type 6 rims
Full Aluminum Yamaha Skidplates
engine is stock for now


Sold the 04 that was slightly modded

(in reply to puddlejumper)
Post #: 21
RE: Grizz 700 needs bottom end help - 9/26/2008 2:50:44 AM   
700CAMOGRIZZ


Posts: 266
Joined: 2/29/2008
From: Florence, Ms
Status: offline
if your bike is an 07 you dont have to buy the pod mod you can do it on the pod you have now just do a search either here or on grizzly central for the pod mod its real easy and wont take but 2 or 3 minutes and its free.

_____________________________

07 CAMO 700
30" $ILVERB@CK$
SS112 WHEELS
FPS CLUTCH KIT
2" EXTREME LIFT
TWIN AIR, SNORKED
HMF UTILITY & OPTIMIZER
http://s368.photobucket.com/albums/oo121/700camogrizz/700%20Grizz/

(in reply to sparky660)
Post #: 22
RE: Grizz 700 needs bottom end help - 9/26/2008 3:40:57 PM   
tncincws1

 

Posts: 134
Joined: 8/22/2007
From: FAIRBANK,AK
Status: online
if im not on asphalt then im in low

_____________________________

07' 750 GRIZZLY!
30X11X14 MUDZILLAS
ITP 212 BLACK
EPI CLUCH KIT
BISON BUMPERS
2 INCH HL LIFT (not installed)
TBR m7 slip-on & juice box
734 trinty BBK

(in reply to wadesie)
Post #: 23
RE: Grizz 700 needs bottom end help - 9/27/2008 5:45:09 PM   
loudelectronics


Posts: 2751
Joined: 1/17/2005
From: manitoba
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: 05mudiak

quote:

ORIGINAL: wadesie

what is included with that clutch kit????? I think might be what I need


new primary springs for what rpm the belt engauges it increases the rpm acts like the stall in a automatic trans in a car, new weights, and a stronger secondary spring it puts more pressure on the belt keep it from slipping.

but as stated in one of the post you might be running lean too if you don't have some kind of controller on it.


YAMAHA belts do not slip no matter what the conditions in high or low range.  You can be in high range all day in thick mud and the belt will not slip or you will not trash the belt either.  The only thing that will happen is the tires wont spin.  The wet clutches take all the work and stress off the belt. 

The secondary spring is for back shifting.  THis changes the shift rate and gives better throttle response when you let off the gas.  It really is not intended for gripping the belt tighter. 

All in all, the Ultramatic does not slip unless it is wet.  Just make sure you are using proper oil to keep your clutches lasting longer.

_____________________________

Grizzly 750fi HMF, K&N XTR's Protaper bars, Rox risers
My Site

(in reply to 05mudiak)
Post #: 24
RE: Grizz 700 needs bottom end help - 9/27/2008 6:07:53 PM   
05mudiak


Posts: 943
Joined: 8/27/2006
From: Haughton, LA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: loudelectronics

quote:

ORIGINAL: 05mudiak

quote:

ORIGINAL: wadesie

what is included with that clutch kit????? I think might be what I need


new primary springs for what rpm the belt engauges it increases the rpm acts like the stall in a automatic trans in a car, new weights, and a stronger secondary spring it puts more pressure on the belt keep it from slipping.

but as stated in one of the post you might be running lean too if you don't have some kind of controller on it.


YAMAHA belts do not slip no matter what the conditions in high or low range.  You can be in high range all day in thick mud and the belt will not slip or you will not trash the belt either.  The only thing that will happen is the tires wont spin.  The wet clutches take all the work and stress off the belt. 

The secondary spring is for back shifting.  THis changes the shift rate and gives better throttle response when you let off the gas.  It really is not intended for gripping the belt tighter. 

All in all, the Ultramatic does not slip unless it is wet.  Just make sure you are using proper oil to keep your clutches lasting longer.


Not too sure where you get this info from yamaha belts do slipped when put under a load and the tires don't move I have smoked my belt on my kody and grizz a few times. The secondary spring is a stronger spring to hold the belt tighter inturn it make the sheaths come together faster when off the throttle slowing you down faster but it is for putting more pressure on the belt it will hold more power without the belt slipping. All belts slip under the right conditons not just when wet.

You have never seen a yamaha when in thick mud smoke a belt? I have seen just about every make and modek smoke a belt in think nasty mud   

_____________________________

2008 girzzly 700
HMF Penland Pro
Dobeck TFI box
Twin Air filter
HL outlaw extreme clutch
2" HL lift kit With HL overload springs
30" mud lites
14" ITP wheels
Fully snorked and relocated radiator
dynateck ignition box & coil

2005 kodiak 450
HMF Eco-system
Twin Air filter
2" high lifter lift kit
bayou snorkel kit
27" mud lites w/itp's

2005 Banshee with mods
1985 Honda odyssey 350r

http://s97.photobucket.com/albums/l238/

(in reply to loudelectronics)
Post #: 25
RE: Grizz 700 needs bottom end help - 9/27/2008 11:51:03 PM   
loudelectronics


Posts: 2751
Joined: 1/17/2005
From: manitoba
Status: offline
I have never seen an Ultramatic smoke a belt in any condition.  I have even tried to do it on my machine with 29.5's in clay.  The tires would not move and I was revving it out.  The wet clutch is supposed to stop belt slippage.  I have 7000k on my kodiak and never had to replace it or even worry about it slipping.  I had it powered out in mud all the time.  But I just can not see it unless the belt is severly worn.  Not saying it is impossible as there has to be some poorly made belts. 

Other belt designs are made to slip.  Kawi, Canam and Poo are slip and go systems.  Changing springs on these systems does grip the belt tighter to prevent slipping on the secondary but still is going to slip on the primary when engaging.  That is the big difference between the Yamaha tranny and other manufacturers. 

_____________________________

Grizzly 750fi HMF, K&N XTR's Protaper bars, Rox risers
My Site

(in reply to 05mudiak)
Post #: 26
RE: Grizz 700 needs bottom end help - 9/28/2008 1:41:40 PM   
farmerboy700


Posts: 1308
Joined: 5/12/2008
From: Tha Ga!!!
Status: online
JUST USE LOW GEAR AND BE HAPPY UR RIDIN THE BEST BIG BORE BIKE OUT THERE!!

AND THERE PROOF TO PROVE THAT!!

_____________________________

"Team Do Work!!"

700 Grizz
32'' Silverbacks
03 Gorilla Lifted 660
31''Outlaws
07 Polaris Ranger 700

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewProfile&friendID=58900083

(in reply to loudelectronics)
Post #: 27
RE: Grizz 700 needs bottom end help - 9/28/2008 6:07:59 PM   
05mudiak


Posts: 943
Joined: 8/27/2006
From: Haughton, LA
Status: offline
I would rather have my belt slip than the wet clutches the wet clutches are more expensive and a lil harder to change. The wet clutches by design should not be the ones slipping once they grabb they shoul not let go untill the rpms come back down. I see smoke from my grizz every time in high I hammer the throttle a little puff of white smoke comes out but its alot more noticable on my since my snorks are in front of my face. With 7000k on your kody and never changed the belt when and if you ever do measure te width against the new belt I bet it will be alot wider and with the new belt it will seem like a new bike. When  changed the on on our kody the new belt was only about a 1/8 wider but with the new belt on it I could wheelie in low with the old worn belt I was not able to.

"The tires would not move and I was revving it out." thats not good anyway you look at it something is slipping and if its your wet clutches that is not good at all!

But I do agree the yamaha trans is the best auto out there!!

The wet cltches dose stop slipping at idle. If you ever seen a belt drive without wet clutches the primary  sheaths keep spinning even at idle wearin on the belt. So yamaha, and I know arctic cat both runn wet cltches to stop that. But a wet clutch once enguaged are not suppose to slip and if they are you have problems. That's why you are spose to run oil made for wet cltches to prevent them from slipping.

_____________________________

2008 girzzly 700
HMF Penland Pro
Dobeck TFI box
Twin Air filter
HL outlaw extreme clutch
2" HL lift kit With HL overload springs
30" mud lites
14" ITP wheels
Fully snorked and relocated radiator
dynateck ignition box & coil

2005 kodiak 450
HMF Eco-system
Twin Air filter
2" high lifter lift kit
bayou snorkel kit
27" mud lites w/itp's

2005 Banshee with mods
1985 Honda odyssey 350r

http://s97.photobucket.com/albums/l238/

(in reply to farmerboy700)
Post #: 28
RE: Grizz 700 needs bottom end help - 9/29/2008 7:32:15 AM   
wadesie


Posts: 57
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline
Well I adjusted the pod and seems to have a nice difference. it was set at 0 so i tryed in on 30 then I went up slowly and I am pretty happy with how its running at 52. I havent had a chance to ride it  whole lot since then but the bonus is its very easy to change to I will keep playing with it.

_____________________________

07 Grizzly 700FI
27 Mudlites on 14's
Xtreme 3500lb Winch (piece of crap)
Power Madd Protectors
2R Power Tip
Leed 2" Reciever
Custom Snorks
Clutch Mods
Red & White Leds
Blue Whelens TIR3 (FOR SALE!!!)

(in reply to 05mudiak)
Post #: 29
RE: Grizz 700 needs bottom end help - 9/29/2008 8:42:22 AM